Rhythm of Time
- Thread starter KerrTexas
- Start date
Darby
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
KT,
I meant "time machine" in the most common sense of the idea - some "anything" no matter what it is that allows one to travel back in time.
We aren't having an argument. I was offering a scenario that if The Gadget actually worked and evidence was thereafter offered as you suggested, taking some artifact into the past and leaving it there to be discovered upon your return to your "present" that no one, not even an (honest) skeptic could ignore. Dishonest skeptics would ignore it in any case but (again), who cares?
You're correct. The Titanic post was here. I read it a couple of nights ago but had a few tabs open and didn't recall which site (and while writing the post I didn't check. So much for a brilliantly thought out and thoroughly researched post. Doh!)
KT,
I meant "time machine" in the most common sense of the idea - some "anything" no matter what it is that allows one to travel back in time.
We aren't having an argument. I was offering a scenario that if The Gadget actually worked and evidence was thereafter offered as you suggested, taking some artifact into the past and leaving it there to be discovered upon your return to your "present" that no one, not even an (honest) skeptic could ignore. Dishonest skeptics would ignore it in any case but (again), who cares?
You're correct. The Titanic post was here. I read it a couple of nights ago but had a few tabs open and didn't recall which site (and while writing the post I didn't check. So much for a brilliantly thought out and thoroughly researched post. Doh!)
Darby
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
I'll give 'er a shot.
The issues that we have been facing since the 1930's when Quantum Mechanics was introduced, some 15 years after General Relativity was introduced, is a complete understanding of gravity that includes both GR and QM.
String Theory was introduced in 1982 as an attempt to quantize GR in terms of QM. We're 30 years into the effort, virtually every university physics department's theoretical physics program worldwide has been focusing the vast majority of their efforts toward string theory during that period and we still haven't solved the problem. In worldwide university research funding alone during that period we've already invested 100's of billions of dollars into the basic science necessary to begin to study time travel. During the entire 95 years of the effort we've already spent most of the trillion dollars if you figure in inflation adjustments. The LHC cost alone is approaching $9 billion.
With all of the money and research over the course of a century what have we actually discovered about time travel? We've discovered that under GR we can make certain assumptions that may or may not describe our reality, plug them into the equations and model time travel scenarios based in first principles in a pristine laboratory setting. As soon as we start plugging in more values that we know are a part of the real world the models fail. Hawking's "Chronology Protection Conjecture" isn't something that he made up on a whim or because he doesn't like the idea of time travel. It is based on the failure modes of the models. Plug in real world values and the laws of physics seem to "conspire" against violating the cause-effect relationship. This is precisely what happens with black hole based time machines. We can model certain classes of black holes in a "universe" where the black hole is embedded in an absolute vacuum space. That means that the would-be observer/time traveler is part of the absolute vacuum state of the universe, i.e. he isn't made up of matter or any other actual "stuff" - he doesn't really exist at all. Add in a real observer/time traveler, matter, photons, quantum effects, etc. and the scenarios fail.
On the homebrew side of things we see, for instance, proposals to spin up an electric field to make a time machine. But we already have that going on a 100 billion times over right here in the Milky Way Galaxy. The interior of the stars near the core have dense, 15 million degree rotating electron plasmas with electromagnetic fields so powerful that if was that easy the stars themselves should have immediately collapsed when fusion was initiated because the plasma formed time machines and the cores were whisked away to "somewhere else". Of course if that were the case there wouldn't be any electrons or a Milky Way Galaxy (or a universe) to ponder.
With all that being said, is the money and effort worth the effort? Of course it is. We may never time travel but we are going to make our best effort at unlocking the universe's secrets and apply them to our problems, one of which is time travel. Without those secrets being unlocked we will never be able to leave this rock and explore even our closest stellar neighbor.
I'll give 'er a shot.
The issues that we have been facing since the 1930's when Quantum Mechanics was introduced, some 15 years after General Relativity was introduced, is a complete understanding of gravity that includes both GR and QM.
String Theory was introduced in 1982 as an attempt to quantize GR in terms of QM. We're 30 years into the effort, virtually every university physics department's theoretical physics program worldwide has been focusing the vast majority of their efforts toward string theory during that period and we still haven't solved the problem. In worldwide university research funding alone during that period we've already invested 100's of billions of dollars into the basic science necessary to begin to study time travel. During the entire 95 years of the effort we've already spent most of the trillion dollars if you figure in inflation adjustments. The LHC cost alone is approaching $9 billion.
With all of the money and research over the course of a century what have we actually discovered about time travel? We've discovered that under GR we can make certain assumptions that may or may not describe our reality, plug them into the equations and model time travel scenarios based in first principles in a pristine laboratory setting. As soon as we start plugging in more values that we know are a part of the real world the models fail. Hawking's "Chronology Protection Conjecture" isn't something that he made up on a whim or because he doesn't like the idea of time travel. It is based on the failure modes of the models. Plug in real world values and the laws of physics seem to "conspire" against violating the cause-effect relationship. This is precisely what happens with black hole based time machines. We can model certain classes of black holes in a "universe" where the black hole is embedded in an absolute vacuum space. That means that the would-be observer/time traveler is part of the absolute vacuum state of the universe, i.e. he isn't made up of matter or any other actual "stuff" - he doesn't really exist at all. Add in a real observer/time traveler, matter, photons, quantum effects, etc. and the scenarios fail.
On the homebrew side of things we see, for instance, proposals to spin up an electric field to make a time machine. But we already have that going on a 100 billion times over right here in the Milky Way Galaxy. The interior of the stars near the core have dense, 15 million degree rotating electron plasmas with electromagnetic fields so powerful that if was that easy the stars themselves should have immediately collapsed when fusion was initiated because the plasma formed time machines and the cores were whisked away to "somewhere else". Of course if that were the case there wouldn't be any electrons or a Milky Way Galaxy (or a universe) to ponder.
With all that being said, is the money and effort worth the effort? Of course it is. We may never time travel but we are going to make our best effort at unlocking the universe's secrets and apply them to our problems, one of which is time travel. Without those secrets being unlocked we will never be able to leave this rock and explore even our closest stellar neighbor.
Einstein
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
Darby
I don't think inventing a time machine is that hard. But as time moves forward it will become harder. The knowledge that we rely on keeps changing in the text books. Newtons Laws aren't entirely correct. He doesn't cover the rules for bodies experiencing three simultaneous forces. The answers will probably be found in basic observations that are right in front of our noses. Would you really be surprised to find out that lots of people already have time machines? Take a look around. Lots of candidates.
Darby
I don't think inventing a time machine is that hard. But as time moves forward it will become harder. The knowledge that we rely on keeps changing in the text books. Newtons Laws aren't entirely correct. He doesn't cover the rules for bodies experiencing three simultaneous forces. The answers will probably be found in basic observations that are right in front of our noses. Would you really be surprised to find out that lots of people already have time machines? Take a look around. Lots of candidates.
- Thread starter
- #26
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
I understood the context of your commentary. The topic of this thread is the Rhythm of Time; a discussion regarding frequencies : Whether that is the material posted in the top of the thread, or the Telluric Currents that were introduced later.
The first mention of a time "machine" was brought into this thread by you. And your perspectives as posted in this thread regarding the development and use of time machine's has been covered quite well in other threads.
I also understood your point regarding the suggested idea for proof for skeptics. Excellent idea IF one is attempting to prove something TO skeptics. This was not what I had in mind...my posted experiment to Timelord was suited to something entirely out of my own curiosity. Nothing more than that.
Your words, not mine. To repeat what I wrote : Yes, there are numerous subjective points , however, there are numerous objective points , as well.
Nobody can deny that there are some intriguing anomalies relative to the Telluric Currents. The dynamics of which aren't entirely understood as of yet. Complex, yes, but there is enough material and resources available that anyone that takes the time to learn, can make use of those resources. And it doesn't take a bundle of money, either.
Been having all kinds of fun playing around with the USGS Geomag calculator ( link is in a previous post in this thread ); And learning how to read the data of the Real Time Charts ( linked in TimeLords Poll Thread ) has become a valuable achievment.
In looking at the Telluric Currents, from what I've come across so far, actually provides logical explaination(s) of numerous anomalies that have been attributed to aliens, secret advanced civilizations, ghosts, and other "paranormal" phenomenon.
That one or two people made up stories about encounters with Native American's that haven't existed in 300 years...may be so. That there are numerous accounts of these encounters, Hmm...worth the look-see. Of the people I've spoken with so far, they seem credible to me, with no reason to make up their experiences. In speaking to the Law Enforcement Officer, he made it clear that never should his name be mentioned with anything about his experiences, nor to publicly share exactly what his experiences have been, which means that there is information that the skeptics don't have, but just might be more useful than anyone could imagine.
That any debunkers here can't debunk a mysterious source; Too bad. What he said or has shown to me, has no bearing on the discussion taking place, here.
With the dynamics relative TO the Telluric Currents, Trinity Bay happens to have an interesting topography ( environment ), that is conducive for Telluric activity and Telluric anomalies.
So far, the only response relative to the Telluric Currents has been " interesting" ; And I would bet money ( $1.00 ) that no one read much of the material of the provided links.
Understanding the Telluric Currents IS the million dollars...now it's a matter of how the cash is spent. ( TimeLord )
That the fluctuations within the Telluric Currents can cause a 2650 V drop in a transatlantic cable during a magnetic storm demonstrates that although usually operating at minimal strength, they do have they're moments.
I am also in the midst of the Flu, and my mood isn't at it's best ( Does it show ? )
And yes, that happens to me, too. I have three different browsers : I.E., Firefox and Google Chrome. Don't know how many times I've been posting material in a thread, listening to music, checking and/or responding to my e-mails, up-loading and/or processing photographs, and then go to click on the Replay button for the music and/or close a window, and realize I just erased(lost)everything that I had written or done in processing a photograph, because I was on a different page than I thought. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I understood the context of your commentary. The topic of this thread is the Rhythm of Time; a discussion regarding frequencies : Whether that is the material posted in the top of the thread, or the Telluric Currents that were introduced later.
The first mention of a time "machine" was brought into this thread by you. And your perspectives as posted in this thread regarding the development and use of time machine's has been covered quite well in other threads.
I also understood your point regarding the suggested idea for proof for skeptics. Excellent idea IF one is attempting to prove something TO skeptics. This was not what I had in mind...my posted experiment to Timelord was suited to something entirely out of my own curiosity. Nothing more than that.
Your words, not mine. To repeat what I wrote : Yes, there are numerous subjective points , however, there are numerous objective points , as well.
Nobody can deny that there are some intriguing anomalies relative to the Telluric Currents. The dynamics of which aren't entirely understood as of yet. Complex, yes, but there is enough material and resources available that anyone that takes the time to learn, can make use of those resources. And it doesn't take a bundle of money, either.
Been having all kinds of fun playing around with the USGS Geomag calculator ( link is in a previous post in this thread ); And learning how to read the data of the Real Time Charts ( linked in TimeLords Poll Thread ) has become a valuable achievment.
In looking at the Telluric Currents, from what I've come across so far, actually provides logical explaination(s) of numerous anomalies that have been attributed to aliens, secret advanced civilizations, ghosts, and other "paranormal" phenomenon.
That one or two people made up stories about encounters with Native American's that haven't existed in 300 years...may be so. That there are numerous accounts of these encounters, Hmm...worth the look-see. Of the people I've spoken with so far, they seem credible to me, with no reason to make up their experiences. In speaking to the Law Enforcement Officer, he made it clear that never should his name be mentioned with anything about his experiences, nor to publicly share exactly what his experiences have been, which means that there is information that the skeptics don't have, but just might be more useful than anyone could imagine.
That any debunkers here can't debunk a mysterious source; Too bad. What he said or has shown to me, has no bearing on the discussion taking place, here.
With the dynamics relative TO the Telluric Currents, Trinity Bay happens to have an interesting topography ( environment ), that is conducive for Telluric activity and Telluric anomalies.
So far, the only response relative to the Telluric Currents has been " interesting" ; And I would bet money ( $1.00 ) that no one read much of the material of the provided links.
Understanding the Telluric Currents IS the million dollars...now it's a matter of how the cash is spent. ( TimeLord )
That the fluctuations within the Telluric Currents can cause a 2650 V drop in a transatlantic cable during a magnetic storm demonstrates that although usually operating at minimal strength, they do have they're moments.
I am also in the midst of the Flu, and my mood isn't at it's best ( Does it show ? )
And yes, that happens to me, too. I have three different browsers : I.E., Firefox and Google Chrome. Don't know how many times I've been posting material in a thread, listening to music, checking and/or responding to my e-mails, up-loading and/or processing photographs, and then go to click on the Replay button for the music and/or close a window, and realize I just erased(lost)everything that I had written or done in processing a photograph, because I was on a different page than I thought. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif
- Thread starter
- #27
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
To add on what you wrote here...
Who would have guessed that homestyle garage tinkerers would be able to contrive log-lighters from scrap computers DVD-burning lasers ? Kind of goes to show that you never know what tinkerers can come up with, from laser log-lighters made from old computer parts to Earth Batteries made from a host of scrap parts.
Earth Battery
Tinkerers and tree power :
Tree Power
Well, back to the garage to continue tinkering with my time traveling machine...oh, just remembered, I don't have a garage.
To add on what you wrote here...
Who would have guessed that homestyle garage tinkerers would be able to contrive log-lighters from scrap computers DVD-burning lasers ? Kind of goes to show that you never know what tinkerers can come up with, from laser log-lighters made from old computer parts to Earth Batteries made from a host of scrap parts.
Earth Battery
Tinkerers and tree power :
Tree Power
Well, back to the garage to continue tinkering with my time traveling machine...oh, just remembered, I don't have a garage.
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
It doesn't matter how many people or much money you throw at trying to make and improve a square wheel, it's never going to roll. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif If they've failed so far, maybe they chose the wrong approach in the beginning.
Darby, ... :D
It doesn't matter how many people or much money you throw at trying to make and improve a square wheel, it's never going to roll. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif If they've failed so far, maybe they chose the wrong approach in the beginning.
RainmanTime
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
I realize hope may spring eternal for some of you.
But as for me, I believe I shall have another drink. Care to join me, Darby?
RMT
I realize hope may spring eternal for some of you.
But as for me, I believe I shall have another drink. Care to join me, Darby?
RMT
- Thread starter
- #30
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
In aircraft/aerospace design, Telluric effects and the Earth's GeoMagnetic Environment are included in the design process, are they not ?
It would seem that as an Aerospace Engineer that you would have the potential to contribute "something greater" ( other than low-level sarcasm, alcoholism and a winkey ) to a discussion concerning the dynamics of Telluric Currents and the Earth's electrical environment.
- quote -
Intrinsic difficulties encountered in obtaining understandings are basically related to several causes that can be co-responsible for observed effects and experiences; Such as discouraged geophysicists [ discouraged Aerospace Engineer's ? ]; From pursuing such inquiries vigorously.
-end quote-
I'm still looking for an answer to what a Temporal Fold is relative to the Telluric Currents ?
I realize hope may spring eternal for some of you.
But as for me, I believe I shall have another drink. Care to join me, Darby?
RMT
In aircraft/aerospace design, Telluric effects and the Earth's GeoMagnetic Environment are included in the design process, are they not ?
It would seem that as an Aerospace Engineer that you would have the potential to contribute "something greater" ( other than low-level sarcasm, alcoholism and a winkey ) to a discussion concerning the dynamics of Telluric Currents and the Earth's electrical environment.
- quote -
Intrinsic difficulties encountered in obtaining understandings are basically related to several causes that can be co-responsible for observed effects and experiences; Such as discouraged geophysicists [ discouraged Aerospace Engineer's ? ]; From pursuing such inquiries vigorously.
-end quote-
I'm still looking for an answer to what a Temporal Fold is relative to the Telluric Currents ?
RainmanTime
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
It might have been good for you to ascertain exactly WHAT it is I am drinking before you assume it is alcohol. It could have explained my short answer.
I am drinking Imodium AD and Gatorade this weekend. Thanks to food poisoning on TUE night, I have not been able to eat a thing. Hence why, upon reading this thread from bed last night, all I could muster was some short sarcasm. Sorry to have offended.
Because I would go even further than this. Before even questioning if there is such a relationship, the engineer in me would like a scientific definition of "temporal fold". The top hit from a google search comes up with an episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Not too encouraging, that is.
The connotative use of these two words would tend to imply that there should be some sort of field equation that would be able to scientifically quantify what the beast is. This because the concept of a "fold" is usually associated with geometrics, if not higher forms of mathematics. Given that we also know that "temporal" MUST (that is not an option from current veridical science) involve SPACE as well as TIME, then I would posit such equations would have to be of at least vector order, and more likely tensor order.
But that aside, let me just say this: Let's not make this personal, OK? Especially when I am sick, without much ability to get around, my mind can really create some incisive rhetoric (and yes, usually sarcastic) if it gets personal. Darby is rigorously applying the scientific method to the things you are discussing, as am I. There is nothing personal about it, although I may have used sarcasm to briefly note I am not (scientifically) convinced.
You have given me a challenge above, and I have responded by reducing it even further as a challenge back to you. This is fully in line with the scientific method, because in science words mean things. We cannot progress in science without firm, scientific definitions of the things we wish to investigate. So...every time something presumptive or speculative is presented, someone following the true scientific method is going to ask for clear, crisp, and yes, scientific definitions of what is being discussed. Otherwise, we can have a speculation fest all day long, and not make any meaningful SCIENTIFIC progress.
Time for some more Gatorade and another nap.
RMT
It might have been good for you to ascertain exactly WHAT it is I am drinking before you assume it is alcohol. It could have explained my short answer.
I am drinking Imodium AD and Gatorade this weekend. Thanks to food poisoning on TUE night, I have not been able to eat a thing. Hence why, upon reading this thread from bed last night, all I could muster was some short sarcasm. Sorry to have offended.
Because I would go even further than this. Before even questioning if there is such a relationship, the engineer in me would like a scientific definition of "temporal fold". The top hit from a google search comes up with an episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Not too encouraging, that is.
The connotative use of these two words would tend to imply that there should be some sort of field equation that would be able to scientifically quantify what the beast is. This because the concept of a "fold" is usually associated with geometrics, if not higher forms of mathematics. Given that we also know that "temporal" MUST (that is not an option from current veridical science) involve SPACE as well as TIME, then I would posit such equations would have to be of at least vector order, and more likely tensor order.
But that aside, let me just say this: Let's not make this personal, OK? Especially when I am sick, without much ability to get around, my mind can really create some incisive rhetoric (and yes, usually sarcastic) if it gets personal. Darby is rigorously applying the scientific method to the things you are discussing, as am I. There is nothing personal about it, although I may have used sarcasm to briefly note I am not (scientifically) convinced.
You have given me a challenge above, and I have responded by reducing it even further as a challenge back to you. This is fully in line with the scientific method, because in science words mean things. We cannot progress in science without firm, scientific definitions of the things we wish to investigate. So...every time something presumptive or speculative is presented, someone following the true scientific method is going to ask for clear, crisp, and yes, scientific definitions of what is being discussed. Otherwise, we can have a speculation fest all day long, and not make any meaningful SCIENTIFIC progress.
Time for some more Gatorade and another nap.
RMT
- Thread starter
- #32
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
Wee...guess we both are bundles of joy when under the weather. I'm in the midst of combating the flu.
You know that I am sincere ( at least I would hope that you would know ) with saying that I pray that you feel better ASAP, and am sorry that you are having to experience any illness, regardless of the cause.
On a Science Fiction Discussion Forum, I would think that it would be understood that "proper scientific protocol and method" expectations are not going to be met by the folks who are so inclined.
This thread "was" merely a discussion between members with similar interests. Anybody that creates a post, and reads the replies, should not walk away from their computer feeling as though they made a mistake merely for expressing thier interest(s) relative to particular thoughts and/or ideas posted on a Science Fiction Discussion Forum.
But, that's just my opinion, nothing personal.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer ? Didn't get that one, but, does exemplify the frustration I'm having in getting a straight answer to the question.
Temporal Fold was mentioned in one of the linked materials ( forget which one ) regarding the Telluric Currents. I ran into the same problem you did...I can not find any expanded explaination or definition as to what "Temporal Fold" means.
Time Dependent ; easy to figure out what was meant there, obviously, any measurements taken within fluctuating field's of energy are "time dependent". What is measured at any given moment, will invariably change when the next measurement is taken.
Unfortunately, the Telluric Currents are not completely understood. Do they exist ? Yes. Can they be measured ? Yes. Does anybody know all of the dynamics, effects and/or potential of the Telluric Currents ? No.
However, even though we don't have firm, scientific definitions; Are we to completely refrain from obtaining understandings which are basically related to observed effects and experiences ?
Wee...guess we both are bundles of joy when under the weather. I'm in the midst of combating the flu.
You know that I am sincere ( at least I would hope that you would know ) with saying that I pray that you feel better ASAP, and am sorry that you are having to experience any illness, regardless of the cause.
On a Science Fiction Discussion Forum, I would think that it would be understood that "proper scientific protocol and method" expectations are not going to be met by the folks who are so inclined.
This thread "was" merely a discussion between members with similar interests. Anybody that creates a post, and reads the replies, should not walk away from their computer feeling as though they made a mistake merely for expressing thier interest(s) relative to particular thoughts and/or ideas posted on a Science Fiction Discussion Forum.
But, that's just my opinion, nothing personal.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer ? Didn't get that one, but, does exemplify the frustration I'm having in getting a straight answer to the question.
Temporal Fold was mentioned in one of the linked materials ( forget which one ) regarding the Telluric Currents. I ran into the same problem you did...I can not find any expanded explaination or definition as to what "Temporal Fold" means.
Time Dependent ; easy to figure out what was meant there, obviously, any measurements taken within fluctuating field's of energy are "time dependent". What is measured at any given moment, will invariably change when the next measurement is taken.
Unfortunately, the Telluric Currents are not completely understood. Do they exist ? Yes. Can they be measured ? Yes. Does anybody know all of the dynamics, effects and/or potential of the Telluric Currents ? No.
However, even though we don't have firm, scientific definitions; Are we to completely refrain from obtaining understandings which are basically related to observed effects and experiences ?
RainmanTime
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
Understood. But just because someone believes this is a science fiction forum does not mean other people should be prevented from actually discussing science viz-a-viz the subject matter. And the part I have emboldened gets to the heart of the matter. Why should anyone "feel they made a mistake" just because another poster interjects with what the scientific method has to say on a particular topic? I cannot control how people feel about themselves, so I stopped trying long ago. But more importantly, I am not going to cease from spreading the good news of the scientific method just because someone may take it the wrong way. Fair enough?
Indeed, and the application of the scientific method has rules about such things. If someone does not properly define terms, then no scientific stock should be placed in such terms. They are fluff. And the worst thing once can do, *IF* one is interested in adhering to the scientific method, is to make assumptions about such a term and how it may relate to whatever scientific point the writer is making. We cannot and must not assume if we are going to get to the bottom of things from a scientific standpoint. This is why science is rigorous, and why proper application of it has seen us advance so far.
Exactly. Agreed. And a very mundane aspect of time this is...things change as time passes. So the danger (again, *IF* one is interested in a scientific pursuit of the issues) is to assume that by adding the term "fold" this somehow means an ability to alter or control time. Such has not been established, scientifically, at all. Hence, it would be incorrect (and I take pains to caveat: from a scientific standpoint) to do so.
Well, but we do know quite a bit about the Telluric Currents, in that they are simple currents of electricity flowing thru the earth. And they are generated as a result of the earth's magnetic field. We know a great deal about how magnetic fields induce electrical current flow. But in the same vein of your final statement in the quote above, I can ask "Does anybody know ALL of the dynamics, effects, and/or potential of electromagnetics?" No. But thanks to folks like Ohm, Kirchoff, and who could forget James Clerk Maxwell, we do know a helluva lot about e/m. Calling them a specific name ("Telluric Currents") does not change the fact that they are ordinary electrical currents. What makes them interesting is their massive scale, and the plurality of interactions at that massive scale. It is exactly the same phenomenon as global climate, which scientists LOVE to model, yet the honest ones know the models do not, and cannot, capture ALL of the dynamics of earth's climate. However, we have a solid foundation of fluid mechanics and thermodynamics that tell us the basics about what drives the climate. The problem comes from the scale of the earth's climate, and the number of simultaneous interactions. This is what makes the problem hard. But the basics are nowhere near mysterious. Same is true for the Telluric Currents. And I would hasten to guess that the analogy to climate is a very good one.
You say "understandings", but I believe you were doing is something else. Namely, you were positing potential relationships of one thing (Telluric Currents) to another (undefined) thing, "Temporal Folds". And I must say that *IF* you are seeking to pursue a scientific investigation, then this is EXACTLY what the scientific method says you SHOULD refrain from. Namely, one should NOT posit a relationship between two phenomenon when there is zero scientific (veridical) evidence that a relationship even exists. Moreover, as discussed, one of the two terms is not even properly quantified, thus making the potential relationship even more tenuous.
So again let me take pains to qualify my words. Am I saying "you should never even think about such things?" Of course not. What myself, and to even a greater extent, Darby, do here is interject scientific thinking and act as the honest broker of veridical science. Some actually might appreciate it. I do understand that others may not give a rat's behind about following veridical science (our friend Einstein seems to fall into this category). But I am sure you would agree that just because someone doesn't care does not mean our inputs should be squelched, right? It is a free and open discussion, and people should take from it what they wish, contribute what they wish, and ignore what they wish. By no means are we here to imply that you should never have flights of fancy, or never consider what may be, and most certainly one should NOT believe that just because we may point out such thoughts may not follow the scientific method that those thoughts were "mistakes".
Fair enough?
RMT
Yes, I do know you are sincere, and the kind thoughts are much appreciated. I started to get my appetite back on Sunday, and I was back on a "firm footing" by Monday morning...just in time to return to work! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/frown.gif And I hope you have likewise shaken off that flu!
Understood. But just because someone believes this is a science fiction forum does not mean other people should be prevented from actually discussing science viz-a-viz the subject matter. And the part I have emboldened gets to the heart of the matter. Why should anyone "feel they made a mistake" just because another poster interjects with what the scientific method has to say on a particular topic? I cannot control how people feel about themselves, so I stopped trying long ago. But more importantly, I am not going to cease from spreading the good news of the scientific method just because someone may take it the wrong way. Fair enough?
Indeed, and the application of the scientific method has rules about such things. If someone does not properly define terms, then no scientific stock should be placed in such terms. They are fluff. And the worst thing once can do, *IF* one is interested in adhering to the scientific method, is to make assumptions about such a term and how it may relate to whatever scientific point the writer is making. We cannot and must not assume if we are going to get to the bottom of things from a scientific standpoint. This is why science is rigorous, and why proper application of it has seen us advance so far.
Exactly. Agreed. And a very mundane aspect of time this is...things change as time passes. So the danger (again, *IF* one is interested in a scientific pursuit of the issues) is to assume that by adding the term "fold" this somehow means an ability to alter or control time. Such has not been established, scientifically, at all. Hence, it would be incorrect (and I take pains to caveat: from a scientific standpoint) to do so.
Well, but we do know quite a bit about the Telluric Currents, in that they are simple currents of electricity flowing thru the earth. And they are generated as a result of the earth's magnetic field. We know a great deal about how magnetic fields induce electrical current flow. But in the same vein of your final statement in the quote above, I can ask "Does anybody know ALL of the dynamics, effects, and/or potential of electromagnetics?" No. But thanks to folks like Ohm, Kirchoff, and who could forget James Clerk Maxwell, we do know a helluva lot about e/m. Calling them a specific name ("Telluric Currents") does not change the fact that they are ordinary electrical currents. What makes them interesting is their massive scale, and the plurality of interactions at that massive scale. It is exactly the same phenomenon as global climate, which scientists LOVE to model, yet the honest ones know the models do not, and cannot, capture ALL of the dynamics of earth's climate. However, we have a solid foundation of fluid mechanics and thermodynamics that tell us the basics about what drives the climate. The problem comes from the scale of the earth's climate, and the number of simultaneous interactions. This is what makes the problem hard. But the basics are nowhere near mysterious. Same is true for the Telluric Currents. And I would hasten to guess that the analogy to climate is a very good one.
You say "understandings", but I believe you were doing is something else. Namely, you were positing potential relationships of one thing (Telluric Currents) to another (undefined) thing, "Temporal Folds". And I must say that *IF* you are seeking to pursue a scientific investigation, then this is EXACTLY what the scientific method says you SHOULD refrain from. Namely, one should NOT posit a relationship between two phenomenon when there is zero scientific (veridical) evidence that a relationship even exists. Moreover, as discussed, one of the two terms is not even properly quantified, thus making the potential relationship even more tenuous.
So again let me take pains to qualify my words. Am I saying "you should never even think about such things?" Of course not. What myself, and to even a greater extent, Darby, do here is interject scientific thinking and act as the honest broker of veridical science. Some actually might appreciate it. I do understand that others may not give a rat's behind about following veridical science (our friend Einstein seems to fall into this category). But I am sure you would agree that just because someone doesn't care does not mean our inputs should be squelched, right? It is a free and open discussion, and people should take from it what they wish, contribute what they wish, and ignore what they wish. By no means are we here to imply that you should never have flights of fancy, or never consider what may be, and most certainly one should NOT believe that just because we may point out such thoughts may not follow the scientific method that those thoughts were "mistakes".
Fair enough?
RMT
- Thread starter
- #35
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
Glad you're feeling better, wife got food poisoning awhile ago, not any kind of fun at all. What helped her to get through her dose of poisoning was Peppermint Tea. She got over it much faster than some of her co-workers.
The Flu is hanging in there. However, looking at the bright side, having the Flu is also an excellent ( although involuntary ) diet program of sorts. Something I'm sure you experienced, nothing in the way of food has much of an appeal and ingesting any food has its consequences.
I am not proclaiming that anyone should cease from spreading the good news of the scientific method, I could have just as easily highlighted " SCIENCE " ; Instead of "fiction". My point is that we either address the issues as presented, without including comments that are conducive to name calling or personal aspersions...nobody likes that at anytime, and has nothing to do with any points, or debate relative to a presentation of thoughts, concepts and/ or ideas.
Simply put, even though someone might believe any particular presentation to be sheer fantasy, doesn't provide the foundation to become a Snidely Whiplash.
We've been down this road before, so don't really want to pursue this any longer. I believe you know where I'm coming from relative to this issue, and I can't claim that I, myself, haven't been guilty of authoring Snidely Whiplash type replies and/ or commentaries. We all have the option of determining "how" we treat others, wherever that may be, and "should" treat others how we ourselves wish to be treated. And if we are in a role-model capacity, then it becomes a responsibility to become a quide and set an example.
It is understood that there are several members here that accomplish admirable deeds, including yourself, who get caught up in the rigorous patterns of the work day and merely wish to let off some steam and have a bit of fun here. Nothing wrong with that, but, not if another member is the "butt-end" of a not-so-nice joke, or comment. If "you" don't like it, chances are good, nobody else does either. One thing to use the Mirror Response Method, quite another to be the reflectOR, as opposed to the reflectEE.
Can't fault anything pointed out here. However, it occurs to me that with anything, an idea or thought comes first. Somebody, somewhere has an experience or witnesses something, and forms a question relative to the experience or thought. Then the quest begins to satisfy that curiosity, scientific or no.
Jules Verne is a good example of this :
-Wikipedia quote -
Some of Verne's ideas about the not-yet-existing submarines which were laid out in this book turned out to be prophetic, such as the high speed and secret conduct of today's nuclear attack submarines.
In the day of Jules Verne, his ideas were in the realm of science fiction , and "were" subject to criticism based on the knowledge of the scientific community at the time, but look what happened. In time, the ideas/thoughts of Jules Verne became reality. Alhought he did make mistakes, still, he first had the idea, and presented his ideas to the world.
" While my book Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is entirely a work of imagination, my conviction is that all I said in it will come to pass. " ~ Jules Verne
Not bad for a work of imagination, eh ?
This all began with shared experiences. That the tellers of the experiences DID encounter "somebody" extraordinary, or unusual. In discussing the experiences of these people, it was suggested to take a look at the Telluric Currents.
Temporal Fold was mentioned in a scientific paper regarding the dynamics of Telluric Currents and Earths Electrical Environment. However, the authors did not explain what they meant by including Temporal Fold in their paper.
As a guess, I believe all they are saying is that there may be one particluar flow ( thread ) of energy traveling at a specific rate of speed, folding into/onto another "thread" of energy that is traveling at a different rate, and has nothing to do with Time Traveling. However, that the interaction does not affect time somehow...I simply don't know without conducting experiments.
But, reckon I has to have the idear "first", ya know what I mean ?
Based on the other material presented in the paper, what occurs to me, is that we have a fluid movement of energies. These currents of energy are influenced by a complex set of interactions, and can be shaped into numerous "patterns".
Temporal variance, was also mentioned in the paper. Temporal Variance could be perceived to mean something other than what it does by some readers. I believe that when some readers see the word Temporal, that time travel is involved, which couldn't be further from the truth in the use of the term in context.
One thing that comes to mind, is the accounts of balls of light that "seem" to chase people in cars. I'm sure you've heard or read about these experiences. Mostly, these balls of light are attributed to aliens or secret government experiments. However, in studying the Telluric Currents, or the Geomag/Electrical Environment, I could easily deduce that due to a specific state of conditions, a short-circuit of sorts, takes place, and produces a ball of light ( charged particles ).
And the only reason why the ball of light "seems" to be chasing the car, is because the vehicle has properties inducive to the particular charge of the ball of energy to be attracted to the vehicle. In essence, it isn't "chasing" the car, but are simply charged particles, being attracted to another set of charged of particles, namely, the vehicle.
Since we all are, in essence, charged particles, I could imagine that under specific conditions, an imprint is bound-up within a stream of the Telluric Currents. And under the appropriate conditons, somebody might be able to visually see this imprint. They might call it a ghost. In some ways, they are correct, but the "ghost" they are seeing, isn't what they think it is.
Relative to time travel, that each moment has a frequency signature, and even though is far to complex for "us" to reproduce, doesn't mean that nature itself can't. That a fold of some type does indeed occur, and the frequency signatures of the past somehow co-mingle with the frequency signatures of the present --- no one can say with certainty that it is completely impossible.
Building a time machine, in the romantic sense, might be impossible. However, that nature herself isn't capable of containing/creating temporal anomalies, I would hesitate to claim that is 100 percent impossible.
At this time, all any of us can say, scientist or not, is that : "I Don't Know."
Just because we can't explain it ( yet ) ; In no way mean's that "something" isn't happening.
In this instance, if one person claims to have run across Warriors that ceased to exist 300 years ago, yeah, that would be subject to extreme doubt. However, when there are numerous experiences and from credible witnesses, something is going on.
My first thought after collecting as many of the accounts as I could, was that what these people are experiencing are either :
1) A group of people pulling a prank and dressing up to look like Warriors of the extinct Tribe.
2) A group of decendents of the original Tribe that escaped into the swamps to avoid being killed.
However, if it is a group of pranksters, then they must be handing down the prank to others through-out the years. Sort of like saying that a group of pranksters are behind the Bermuda Triangle events.
And, no one has yet come upon any remnants of any such groups living in the swamps.
All encounters are extremely brief, and during specific conditions. Through the links I provided, anyone that wants to see the Electrical Environment at play, can do so for themselves. Actually, when there are weather or climatic events, it is interesting to look at the Real Time Data Charts and compare those readings to the climatic events.
When the Norway Spiral took place...interesting to see the Real-Time Charts then...
The Law Enforcement Officer saw what appeared to be a Karankawa Warrior stand-up from within the brush, and immediately gave chase after having an arrow shot at him. However, the Warden could not find anyone, nor could he find any tracks( signs ) of someone who would have certainly left some sort of evidence of their presence.
That the region where this occured is subject to disturbances in the Geomag/electrical environment is a given. The physical make-up of the region is unique, and is conducive for anomalies to occur.
That they may be temporal disturbances, especially under the rules of science, however remote, is still within the realm of possibilities.
Of course not, Nobody should have their input squelched. But, there are ways of doing just that via the composition ( tone ) of a response. It should be a free and open discussion, to a point, which was addressed above, and yeah, fair enough. There never was anything personal in my approach, was just making a point. No offense was intended at any time.
Glad you're feeling better, wife got food poisoning awhile ago, not any kind of fun at all. What helped her to get through her dose of poisoning was Peppermint Tea. She got over it much faster than some of her co-workers.
The Flu is hanging in there. However, looking at the bright side, having the Flu is also an excellent ( although involuntary ) diet program of sorts. Something I'm sure you experienced, nothing in the way of food has much of an appeal and ingesting any food has its consequences.
I am not proclaiming that anyone should cease from spreading the good news of the scientific method, I could have just as easily highlighted " SCIENCE " ; Instead of "fiction". My point is that we either address the issues as presented, without including comments that are conducive to name calling or personal aspersions...nobody likes that at anytime, and has nothing to do with any points, or debate relative to a presentation of thoughts, concepts and/ or ideas.
Simply put, even though someone might believe any particular presentation to be sheer fantasy, doesn't provide the foundation to become a Snidely Whiplash.
We've been down this road before, so don't really want to pursue this any longer. I believe you know where I'm coming from relative to this issue, and I can't claim that I, myself, haven't been guilty of authoring Snidely Whiplash type replies and/ or commentaries. We all have the option of determining "how" we treat others, wherever that may be, and "should" treat others how we ourselves wish to be treated. And if we are in a role-model capacity, then it becomes a responsibility to become a quide and set an example.
It is understood that there are several members here that accomplish admirable deeds, including yourself, who get caught up in the rigorous patterns of the work day and merely wish to let off some steam and have a bit of fun here. Nothing wrong with that, but, not if another member is the "butt-end" of a not-so-nice joke, or comment. If "you" don't like it, chances are good, nobody else does either. One thing to use the Mirror Response Method, quite another to be the reflectOR, as opposed to the reflectEE.
Can't fault anything pointed out here. However, it occurs to me that with anything, an idea or thought comes first. Somebody, somewhere has an experience or witnesses something, and forms a question relative to the experience or thought. Then the quest begins to satisfy that curiosity, scientific or no.
Jules Verne is a good example of this :
-Wikipedia quote -
Some of Verne's ideas about the not-yet-existing submarines which were laid out in this book turned out to be prophetic, such as the high speed and secret conduct of today's nuclear attack submarines.
In the day of Jules Verne, his ideas were in the realm of science fiction , and "were" subject to criticism based on the knowledge of the scientific community at the time, but look what happened. In time, the ideas/thoughts of Jules Verne became reality. Alhought he did make mistakes, still, he first had the idea, and presented his ideas to the world.
" While my book Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is entirely a work of imagination, my conviction is that all I said in it will come to pass. " ~ Jules Verne
Not bad for a work of imagination, eh ?
This all began with shared experiences. That the tellers of the experiences DID encounter "somebody" extraordinary, or unusual. In discussing the experiences of these people, it was suggested to take a look at the Telluric Currents.
Temporal Fold was mentioned in a scientific paper regarding the dynamics of Telluric Currents and Earths Electrical Environment. However, the authors did not explain what they meant by including Temporal Fold in their paper.
As a guess, I believe all they are saying is that there may be one particluar flow ( thread ) of energy traveling at a specific rate of speed, folding into/onto another "thread" of energy that is traveling at a different rate, and has nothing to do with Time Traveling. However, that the interaction does not affect time somehow...I simply don't know without conducting experiments.
But, reckon I has to have the idear "first", ya know what I mean ?
Based on the other material presented in the paper, what occurs to me, is that we have a fluid movement of energies. These currents of energy are influenced by a complex set of interactions, and can be shaped into numerous "patterns".
Temporal variance, was also mentioned in the paper. Temporal Variance could be perceived to mean something other than what it does by some readers. I believe that when some readers see the word Temporal, that time travel is involved, which couldn't be further from the truth in the use of the term in context.
One thing that comes to mind, is the accounts of balls of light that "seem" to chase people in cars. I'm sure you've heard or read about these experiences. Mostly, these balls of light are attributed to aliens or secret government experiments. However, in studying the Telluric Currents, or the Geomag/Electrical Environment, I could easily deduce that due to a specific state of conditions, a short-circuit of sorts, takes place, and produces a ball of light ( charged particles ).
And the only reason why the ball of light "seems" to be chasing the car, is because the vehicle has properties inducive to the particular charge of the ball of energy to be attracted to the vehicle. In essence, it isn't "chasing" the car, but are simply charged particles, being attracted to another set of charged of particles, namely, the vehicle.
Since we all are, in essence, charged particles, I could imagine that under specific conditions, an imprint is bound-up within a stream of the Telluric Currents. And under the appropriate conditons, somebody might be able to visually see this imprint. They might call it a ghost. In some ways, they are correct, but the "ghost" they are seeing, isn't what they think it is.
Relative to time travel, that each moment has a frequency signature, and even though is far to complex for "us" to reproduce, doesn't mean that nature itself can't. That a fold of some type does indeed occur, and the frequency signatures of the past somehow co-mingle with the frequency signatures of the present --- no one can say with certainty that it is completely impossible.
Building a time machine, in the romantic sense, might be impossible. However, that nature herself isn't capable of containing/creating temporal anomalies, I would hesitate to claim that is 100 percent impossible.
At this time, all any of us can say, scientist or not, is that : "I Don't Know."
Just because we can't explain it ( yet ) ; In no way mean's that "something" isn't happening.
In this instance, if one person claims to have run across Warriors that ceased to exist 300 years ago, yeah, that would be subject to extreme doubt. However, when there are numerous experiences and from credible witnesses, something is going on.
My first thought after collecting as many of the accounts as I could, was that what these people are experiencing are either :
1) A group of people pulling a prank and dressing up to look like Warriors of the extinct Tribe.
2) A group of decendents of the original Tribe that escaped into the swamps to avoid being killed.
However, if it is a group of pranksters, then they must be handing down the prank to others through-out the years. Sort of like saying that a group of pranksters are behind the Bermuda Triangle events.
And, no one has yet come upon any remnants of any such groups living in the swamps.
All encounters are extremely brief, and during specific conditions. Through the links I provided, anyone that wants to see the Electrical Environment at play, can do so for themselves. Actually, when there are weather or climatic events, it is interesting to look at the Real Time Data Charts and compare those readings to the climatic events.
When the Norway Spiral took place...interesting to see the Real-Time Charts then...
The Law Enforcement Officer saw what appeared to be a Karankawa Warrior stand-up from within the brush, and immediately gave chase after having an arrow shot at him. However, the Warden could not find anyone, nor could he find any tracks( signs ) of someone who would have certainly left some sort of evidence of their presence.
That the region where this occured is subject to disturbances in the Geomag/electrical environment is a given. The physical make-up of the region is unique, and is conducive for anomalies to occur.
That they may be temporal disturbances, especially under the rules of science, however remote, is still within the realm of possibilities.
Of course not, Nobody should have their input squelched. But, there are ways of doing just that via the composition ( tone ) of a response. It should be a free and open discussion, to a point, which was addressed above, and yeah, fair enough. There never was anything personal in my approach, was just making a point. No offense was intended at any time.
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
Regarding the temporal folds, I recommend a large amount of shaving cream and a high quality razor produced by Ockham. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
However interesting telluric currents may be, the universe (at least around here) is full of electric currents - they're not limited to the ground. Of course there's ligthning in the clouds, solar wind, the heliospheric current sheet, etc. So there's really a continuous (or somewhat continuous) flow of current to/from the sun, all through the earth, and beyond. :oops:
Regarding the temporal folds, I recommend a large amount of shaving cream and a high quality razor produced by Ockham. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
However interesting telluric currents may be, the universe (at least around here) is full of electric currents - they're not limited to the ground. Of course there's ligthning in the clouds, solar wind, the heliospheric current sheet, etc. So there's really a continuous (or somewhat continuous) flow of current to/from the sun, all through the earth, and beyond. :oops:
- Thread starter
- #38
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
The Universe ( at least around here ) is full of electric currents...but...I am not anywhere else in the Universe, but here, at least as per Google Earth's "You Are Here" bubble thing-a-McBobble.
I did order Jacob's Ladder for - The Ultimate Universe Experience , but the vendor made a mistake and I received instead Jacobs Ladder Total Body Climbing Treadmill - The Ultimate Fitness Experience.
As far as a large amount of shaving cream and a high-quality razor produced by Ockham...I am sporting a full beard, so don't really need 'em.
Thank-you for the recommendation, though. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The Universe ( at least around here ) is full of electric currents...but...I am not anywhere else in the Universe, but here, at least as per Google Earth's "You Are Here" bubble thing-a-McBobble.
I did order Jacob's Ladder for - The Ultimate Universe Experience , but the vendor made a mistake and I received instead Jacobs Ladder Total Body Climbing Treadmill - The Ultimate Fitness Experience.
As far as a large amount of shaving cream and a high-quality razor produced by Ockham...I am sporting a full beard, so don't really need 'em.
Thank-you for the recommendation, though. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
- Thread starter
- #40
KerrTexas
Timekeeper
Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents
Touché ! Le succès excellent mon ami. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Even Better
Touché ! Le succès excellent mon ami. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Even Better
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