Chronovisor Posts

NoTime

October 26, 2000 10:27 am
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…also, in a multiverse containing all possibilities, you can’t change anything because whatever changes you try to make are already there as one of the possibilities.

NoTime

October 26, 2000 10:22 am
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In some probabilities, you traveled to the future and made it back, in others you did not make it back. In some probabilities you are alive in a future time and in others you are not alive. A multiverse contains all possibilities and all combinations of possibilities.

If you can travel to the future, you can meet a future self or not, depending on which probable future you go to.

Cocurious

October 26, 2000 5:16 am
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In response to 1.21 jiga-watts. If you go into the future and see yourself, then by rights you will succeed in whatever you are doing in the future, and make it back to the present. If you don’t see yourself, then one could asume that you never made it back to your own time in the present.

Paul

October 26, 2000 3:27 am
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It is very interesting what would happen if you left the present and reached the future. In The Time Machine the time travelers asks about himself and people claim he went missing when he left on his journey through time.
It seems like an BTTF2 Marty was taken away in 1985 so his kids and everything couldn’t exist in 2015…
But the existance of his kids might just be evidence that they will later return to 1985 to do all those things! This would imply that everything they are going to do have already been decided!
It became clear the the future is NOT set as Doc claimed the future hasn’t been written yet. So how could they travel into what does not exist? Even when Marty went to 1955 he must have been from the future from some people’s point of view?
The future they travelled to might just have been one possible future! In the quantum many worlds theory there are an infinite amount of futures where every possibility occurs…

——————
Paul Curran

Crono

October 25, 2000 2:52 pm
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I think there is two ways to look at this Jiga Watts. The first one is where you can actually change the past so it effects the future. If you were presumed dead in the future, then you could go back to the time right after you left and nothing would have been changed. However if you leave again, it will just be the same as before.

The second one is where you can’t change the past, and you’ll only be creating a parallel universe. What used to be your future is now your present, and since what used to be your present is now your past, you can’t change the past, so you’ll still be presumed dead at when you left off. And so you can still go back in the past and live there as usual, you won’t be changing the future.

I think that’s how those theories go.

NoTime

October 25, 2000 1:32 pm
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True. If you leave this time, you will not be here until you return. But, if you are aive in the future as you were alive in the past, then you could visit yourself because you are there. Your present self is different from your past or future self. This definitely applies to the past because you know you lived in the past and if you can go there, then you can visit yourself.

1.21 Jiga-watts

October 25, 2000 1:05 pm
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Let’s get away from travelling to the past for a moment. Let’s look at what was made popular in Back to the Future pt 2, where Marty sees his son, or his girlfriend sees herself.
It cannot happen! If you left time, you would be considered ‘missing’, or dead. The truth is, you don’t exist from the point in which you lept forward in time. You therefore cannot see yourself, or your son, because you stopped existing at that point in the past where you left.

Is this a proper paradox? Is there any reasoning I am missing that says you can see your future self?

Look forward to responses.

1.21 Jiga-watts

SHADOWshadow

October 24, 2000 7:37 pm
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Paradox can’t hold a candle to “twinadox”. Thats when you time travel back and MARRY your gradndmother and become your own grandpaw. What if you had a twin brother and the THREE of you all show up one day, wich one is the other you? How do you know that there shouldn’t be four of you and somebodys missing? Cheesh man!! I’m going to get some sleep, and try not to read this thread next time…er wait a minute, on the other hand………the me in a paralell reality may infulence me to change my mind………….

NoTime

October 23, 2000 10:06 am
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There is no grandfather paradox in the multiverse scenario. In a multiverse, your grandfather’s multiple histories included many in which he was not murdered and many in which he was murdered.

Those many histories in which he was murdered included some involving different male or female murderers who killed him. It’s possible that you were one of those murderers in one of your previous lifetimes or incarnations.

Paul

October 23, 2000 2:14 am
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THE PARADOXES…
If you went back in time and visited your granny during her ninth birthday don’t kill her! Because if you put a gun to her head and pull the trigger she could not have given birth to your mum. YOU certainly were never born…

Therefore you could not have killed anyone as you never existed. Now this means your granny couldn’t have been killed by you. She didn’t die nine years old. This permits you to be born.

If you were born could you go back and kill your granny? No, not your real granny. This general idea has been used in Back to the future. Marty nearly stops himself from being born when he prevents his parents from falling in love.

Solving The Problem
1, You simply can’t change history meaning if you go back in time you have no free will(as shown in Twelve Monkeys, Crime Traveler etc. Events will get in your way if you try to kill your granny. YOU CAN’T DO IT.

2, When you so-called change history you’re actually moving up a different branch in time into another universe. The previous universe (where you were born) still exists. When you fire the gun you’re really killing another version of your grandmother.

3, Any actions you make in the so-called past has no affects on the present. It’s a different time-line universe.

The laws true solutions don’t present real time-travel as you go into another world.

Conclusion
We can’t simply use the grandmother paradox to rule out time-travel claiming it causes logical inconsistencies. We need to look at all the possibilities.

How could we build a time machine?
The mathematics of general relativity suggest that under extreme conditions space-time might become so warped it would be possible to travel back in time. There is also the possibility of tunnels in time created by negative mass.

Very long rotating cylinders of matter-proposed by Frank Tipler

Kerr’s spinning blackholes-since most stars spin this becomes worth looking (proposed by Roy Kerr).

Cosmic strings-(as Richard Cott suggested)

Travelling faster than light – would take us back in time(as suggested by solutions to relativity). Wormholes might allow us to outpace light (if you walk through the short cut quicker than light through convential (normal) space.

Tachyons -are sub-atomic particles which always travel faster than light and therefore move back in time constantly. They have not yet been found and remain hypethical.

Contracting Universe- Time might then be running backwards but since everything else also would it’s unsuitable.

Macro-wormholes(Kip Thorne showed how we could use it as a time machine).

time – paradox
Paradoxes

Grandfather paradox
Suppose you could go back in time, lets say several decades and found your grandfather when he was two years old. In his house you could grab a knife and stab him to death. He doesn’t get the chance to have children with your grandmother. Therefore either your mother or father doesn’t get born. Your parents can’t give birth to you because one of them don’t exist. You could never have been born and don’t even exist. But could your grandfather have been killed by someone who doesn’t exist? He must have lived through his childhood. This would allow you to exist if this is the case. Seemingly you can go back in time to commit the murder if you are born but then you would never have been born. And so on and so on. This situation is not consistent with itself. It doesn’t make sense and can’t possibly happen.

Solutions

1, You simply can’t change the past. Time will stop you limiting your freedom while you’re in the past from your point of view. This puts the concept of freewill in serious danger especially if you tell people what’s going to happen to them in their future. If you believe when you go back in time you are from one possible future from everyone else’s point of view they can simply go up any root in time they want.

According to quantum physics Many Worlds theory there are a huge amount of universes where every possibility occurs between them all. In some you’re the opposite sex. In some you won the lottery etc.

You might be heading towards the universe you originally came from before you travelled back in time. Everything will happen the way you remember it. But all the people you meet are free to decide what they want to do and enter a different universe. Since it’s not possible for you to be there you disappear from their lives. Meeting a time traveller from your future could therefore be very strange.

2, A parallel universe might be created when you seem to change the past. Imagine if time itself was just like a tree. The different branches show different ways events could have happened. Every time we decide to do or not to do something time splits. Even if we are not aware we decided something it have affects. Quantum physics reveals a many worlds theory like this.
Conclusion
Since this parallel universe is not really your past (despite it’s first appearance) anything you do there does not affect you. You can prevent a version of yourself from being born because you are not really related to anyone there. They just look very like your family and friends. You are not home! You may be somewhere that looks like the place you live but a different universe in quantum physics is a completely different reality.

3, No matter what you do in what is really a parallel universe you will do back to your previous universe which is not affected by your previous actions. A space-time wormhole could lead you back to your original unaffected universe.

What came out of the wormhole if the ball never went into it?

Another common example of a paradox is a ball that goes through a wormhole connected with a moment in the past. Therefore it comes out of the other space-time wormhole mouth actually before it went in! Then what might happen? If the ball then hits it’s younger self out of the way of the mouth then it never goes in. But if the ball never did go in the wormhole then how can it ever come out. The existence of the older version of the ball is destroyed i.e. it never falls back in time. But then this version certainly can’t hit the younger version out of the way. So it must go into the wormhole as a collision with it’s older self is evidently the only force that could and did stop the ball from entering the wormhole. This of course is unexplainable and is logically inconsistent.

But the situation could happen differently to allow it to become self consistent.

1, What if after the ball comes out of the wormhole at an earlier time it does hit it’s previous self but this collision is what makes the ball fall into the mouth in the first place! It hits the other version into the mouth. This would imply that the past or present is affected by the future. In fact in this case the past is dependant on the future.

2, The ball might simply hit it’s other self only slightly so the direction of the ball is not altered enough to cause a paradox.

3, The ball might just miss it’s younger self.

Nature might protect time and prevent paradoxes. From theories and many stories it’s clear that paradoxes cannot happen in the real world.

Other types of paradoxes
In the terminator movies John had something important to tell Sarah. Thank her for her help through the hell. Tell her not to give up or he will never exist.
Who wrote the speech?
John certainly didn’t write it. He was told it since he was a kid from Sarah who could remember it. Sarah just recalls what Kyle told her in 1984. Kyle just remembered what John told him to say.
Conclusion
No one wrote it. It exists somehow but not by John, Kyle or Sarah being creative. No one had to write it because it was created by the affect the future on the past had on each other.

If I in 2000 study the history of work done in a private factory and learn about the development of a time machine! Their scientists worked from designs and plans noted in a book (never published)they used. They had no idea how to achieve such technology until they read it.
Then to experiment with temporal(time) paradoxes I am sent back to 1983. The entire building has not even been built as I arrive. Later accidentally I meet one of the scientists and talk to him. When I hear how excited he is I hand him that book which he uses future success. The answers! He is more than willing to read and use the book.

But who came up with the idea of how the time machine is built?
Not any of the scientists as they just followed instructions in that book.
Not me as all I did was hand a scientist a book. Noone actually wrote the book and no one had to work it out.

Is this allowed by physical laws?
Noone really knows…

——————
Paul Curran from Co Derry, Ireland

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 12 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 23 January 2001).]