Do We Need a Forum for the Divine?

[trollface]

Right, I’d forgotton how bad at debating you can be…

Unfortunately, this was not true prior to the invasion: Saddam was not incarcerated, he was still ordering killings.

Ample proof that it doesn’t do anyone any good if you stretch a metaphor too far. Saddam was constrained within his own boarders, as was his aggression. Remember, we are discussing Saddam’s potential threat to the outside world at the time of the invasion.

Where was the world’s outrage over this?

I find myself having to ask a similar question to that I had to ask last post. Are you assuming that I had never spoken out about Saddam’s practicies before it was mentioned by the US? Maybe you thouhgt he was a good guy back during the Iran-Iraq war, but don’t assume that the same is true for everybody else.

You are the one who espoused the philosophy that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, not me.

Thanks to the Coalition, the murder IS now incarcerated. Thanks for helping me make that point.

And thatks to the Coalition he might be freed, put back in charge of his country with the US and the UK in his debt and it being nigh-on impossible for anyone else to ever challenge the legitimacy of his authority again. Thank you for helping me to make that point.

This is what I was referring to as the “real” reason for the invasion that was politically incorrect. Israel could not remove Arafat, and neither could the US, as much as anyone with half a brain can see that he IS the problem. Since Arafat refused to crack down on homicide bombings (as they were orchestrated by his own Fatah party), then getting rid of sponsors of that terrorism is the next best thing. As people were always criticizing the US for not “doing something” about the Middle East cesspool, the decision was made to do something by eliminating Saddam. He was an extremely convenient target, not only to push Arafat’s group of thugs to the point we see them now, but also to send a crystal clear message to the Arab world that the world’s superpower does, indeed, have the will to use its power of hegemony.

Saddam was deposed to weaken Arafat? Hmmmm…

But did it ever occur to you that one (of many) reasons that he didn’t compare to Hitler in terms of sheer scope was precisely because he was not permitted to go as far as Hitler?

Not only have I considered it, but it was the exact point I was making with regards to Saudi Arabia.

And… are you implying that if we had simply limited Hitler to his German borders that his extermination of German Jews would have been acceptable behavior?

Yes, that’s exactly what I was saying. Well done for exposing my anti-semitism for all to see.

Given his track record of Iran and Kuwait, I think you would agree that (statistically speaking) he was more likely to try again than to not.

“Statistically speaking?” I think it’s a little more complex than that. Oh, and remember, the Iran invasion doesn’t count - he was our ally who we actively helped acomplish that goal.

Why do you think it is not acting “grown up” when I call you on changing my words, as we can clearly see in this quote? These words are yours, and they bear no resemblance to my assertation, which is: The fact that Saddam was a threat to the outside world is what precipitated the invitation of US troops into the Saudi Kingdom. I believe I have made this point twice, and yet you still seemed to twist it with your words above. Cause-effect: Saddam’s threat was the cause, US troops entering SA was the effect.

Rainman, Rainman, Rainman…I think you’re forgetting one little thing. You are the person who is replying to the points that I am making in this discussion, not the other way around. If what you are saying is different in content and/or context to what I am saying, then it is you who is twisting my words around to “change the point”.

As you even pointed out yourself, my point was that Saddam couldn’t legitimately be compared to Hitler in terms of being an active threat to the outside world at the time of the Coalition invasion of Iraq. If you count addressing anything outside of that extremely narrow band of focus as “twisting words” and “changing the point” then it is you, my friend who is guilty of this crime and not me.

Cause-effect: US troops being present in Saudi was the cause, the threat to Saudi Arabia being neutralised was the effect.

Now grow up or this will be another instance where I’ll simply have to stop replying to you, which’ll be a shame, as you can make good points when you put your mind to it, and actually concentrate on the debate rather than whining that I don’t play fair.

The fact that US forces were protecting Saudi Arabia in no way alters the fact that Saddam was a threat… it only made him think twice about starting any trouble with the Saudis.

Going back to the murderer analogy, what you are saying is the equivalent to “Charlie Manson’s still a threat to the outside world, it’s just the prison walls and guards that are making him think twice about starting any trouble with the rest of Polanski’s family”. The US troops were the guards and walls. Saddam was contained.

Political gamesmanship.

Another way of saying “tactics”. This post is your one and only warning - stop it and grow up.

The end result is the problem is gone, and while they will never admit it publicly, there is more than one nation in the region that is happy (and more secure) now that he is gone.

“More secure”? The region is less stable than ever. You said as much about Iran yourself, and terrorist attacks in the region haven’t exactly stepped down over the last year, have they. And that’s before we even get onto the subject of boarder controls, civil unrest, anti-US sentiment, the rise of Wahhbism and so on…

And as a result we are seeing the Israel/Palestinian situation moving away from stalemate.

Yes, now they’re kidnapping and assasinating each other’s leaders, desending into civil war as well as continuing suicide bombings and arbitrarily (and illegally) annexing each other’s land, cutting hundreds and thousands of innocent civilians off from their only means of survival. Much better.

Ask the Irish whether they’d rather have the uneasy stalemate they have now, or whether they’d rather have out-and-out chaos.

You were the one bringing up “propaganda”, as if to imply that Saddam was a little angel.

I think you need to look up the definition of the word in a dictionary.

since the event happend, all the evidence has shown that the gassing of the Kuds was carried out by the Iranians. Both our governments even altered their forigen policy with regards to weapon supplies to Iraq (and Iran) as a result. Ever since the gassing, both of our governments have stated that those Kurds were killed on the deliberate orders of Saddam as part of an attempt at genocide. What word would you use to describe it?

Destroying an entire culture’s home and the environment from which they achieve subsistence is certainly genocidal. Clearly a valid comparision to Hitler, no?

To be fair he’s hardly unique in that, though, is he? Care to comment on the US government’s complicity in destroying the natural habitat of, say, the U’wa people of Colombia? A couple of links to get you started: http://www.ran.org/ran_campaigns/beyond_oil/oxy/
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/BIOL/faculty/pcamill/SLP00/nora/SLP.htm

All this proves is that (a) The UN does not possess the ability to enforce its “laws”, and (b) it does not possess the will to use it.

As this is your opinion, I never want to hear you refering to resolutions sanctions or anything to do with the UN as legitimising the US’ actions again.

What were these options you refer to (and I am talking ones that would be effective, not passing more useless resolutions)?

Well, the first and most obvious was to let the inspectors do their work.

Let’s not forget that it was European INaction that caused two wars to get out of hand.

This is probably the most irrational you’ve got. I expect “we saved your asses in WWII” from rabid patroitic right-wing militant yanks when they’ve run out of real arguments, but to claim that the rest of Europe was doing nothing before America enterd the wars? Ludicrous and more than a little disrespectful to the more than 39 million Europeans who died in WWII alone, not including the millions of Jews and other innocents. Very tacky and tasteless, there.

And this is where you ignore the concept of sovereign democracy, where legitimacy is bestowed by the governed.

The legitimacy, in this case, was bestowed by the US.

In this case, it was quite clear that Saddam was stalling, because he knew we did not wish to prosecute the bulk of that war in the heat & sandstorms of the desert summer.

That does not explain why it couldn’t have happened after the summer.

As much as some in the world do not like it, we are the world’s police force.

No, you are not.

At this point, the only people in the world who have to worry are those who terrorize and those who support terrorists.

You might want to read this: http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/WesternTerrorism.asp

And let us not forget the good old IRA.

[trollface]

So mind telling me what creature is this? The missing link?

This is a bit of a Mickey Mouse explanation, but this page should explain it for you: http://pages.emerson.edu/students/benjamin_delahaye/ml/science.html

You want evidence or websites? Why it’s on CNN itself

I’m sorry, what’s this supposed to be evidence of? That we share many genes in common with even seemingly unrelated species as rats (including dormant “tail genes”) would suggest that we did, indeed, all evolve from a common root, would it not? And that they are remarkably similar would show that small changes in the structure of DNA can lead to far more significant changes on the outside, would it not? Which would be in line with evolution.

[Roel_van_Houten]

So mind telling me what creature is this? The missing link?

Well… you already found the answer yourself:

[ [quote]
Reason for sharing
Scientists say mice, humans and many other mammals descended from a common ancestor about the size of a small rat from 75 to 125 million years ago. That creature lived alongside the dinosaur. While mice and humans certainly don’t look much the same these days, their genetic blueprints are startlingly similar.
[/quote]

That’s straight from the CNN website

So tell me, how did your parents in their lives would ever know they would conceive a child, let alone you? I don’t see how it affects free will.

My parents created me, not god. I don’t see how anyone could deny that.

Beats me. Did the chicken or the egg come first? Beats me too.

Possible solution?

See, I don’t pretend to know all the answers, but I keep challenging my own believes by asking myself questions. I hope you’re doing the same. All I suggest is that you do not unthinkingly accept the existence of god.

Now, if God came and revealed himself and solved all our problems.

He doesn’t have to solve all our problems. I’d be surprised if he even solved one! So far he has done nothing for the world. If god really did exist, I don’t see why innocent godloving people should still suffer? I’d understand if he’d make me suffer, since I don’t believe in him… I’d understand if he’d make murderers and rapist suffer… but why do religious people have to suffer?

[trollface]

Sorry, nicknack, I inadvertantly forgot to answer one of your questions.

So tell me, how did your parents in their lives would ever know they would conceive a child, let alone you? I don’t see how it affects free will.

If it was predetermined that my parents were to concieve me, they would have had no free will in the matter of how they acted which caused them to meet, and all subsequent descisions that led to my birth. They may have had the illusion of free will, but free will is what they didn’t have.

Have you ever read the seminal comic book The Watchmen? In it there is only one actual “superhero” with powers, and he’s close to omnipotent. In an argument with his girlfriend he declares that he can see the future. She asks him why, then, he acted in the way he did, even though he knew it would cause the argument it did (and why he reacted with surprise when she revealed a secret to him). He replys that everything is predetermined, including his responses. Her response is “are you telling me that you, the most powerful being in the universe, are nothing but a puppet”. His reply is simply “we are all puppets. I’m just the only one that can see the strings”.

Point being, if it was predetermined by God that I would be born then my parents had the strings attached and everything was determined in such detail that even the specific sperm that fertilised the specific egg was known in advance. The strings were definately attached. that my parents couldn’t see the strings doesn’t mean that they weren’t there. That my parents thought they had free will doesn’t mean that they did.

Determanism and free will are mutualy exclusive.

[trollface]

Something just occured to me…

Given his track record of Iran and Kuwait, I think you would agree that (statistically speaking) he was more likely to try again than to not.

What does happen if we look at it statistically?

Saddam Hussain was in power from 1979 until 2003 - 24 years. In that time, he attempted to invade 2 countrys. That’s 0.083333(recurring) per year (a twelth), on average.

George W. Bush came to power in 2001 and is still in power in 2004 - 3 years. In that time, he has attempted to invade 2 countrys. That’s 0.6666666(recurring) per year (two thirds), on average.

How useful do you think statistics actually are in this situation, without context?

[KerrTexas]

I know. I help people all the time. But I can’t help an entire country, or continent. God supposedly has that power, but he chooses to let these people suffer.

Every contribution helps. If more people got involved, then perhaps we could make a difference on a wider scope. I agree with you in regards to that question. But, once again, I am not God and don’t know why He doesn’t step in and end all this…experiment over! kind of thing.
But then as a God, God can do whatever He wants to do regardless of our sentiments. We assume He would step in if He was there, but I guess God figures He won’t for whatever reasons are his alone.

[CAT]

Again! You are all going back and forth, bickering about who or what is Gd and why he lets suffering continue? I obviously did not explain myself well in my previous post…

Gd is a hierarchy, THE HIERARCHY!!!

Look up at the night sky with its multitudes of stars and feel as though some part of us were connected to those distant beings of light. Realizing in some way that all the parts of the cosmos are linked in a basic unity of multiplicity. This **“oneness” ** is the relationship of the parts of the universe to each other and to the whole…

This Ladder of Life or Great Chain of Being, describes the universe as a series of interconnected lives extending from the minute to the immense to every unit found in nature is a living being composed of many smaller lives and in turn, that each such unit helps to form some greater entity…

The human body is a good example of one such hierarchy. Basically, our body is built of cells grouped into organs and other systems which together form the whole. Each cell is itself a conscious life responding in an individual way and having its own distinctive character. The organs too, have their own character and moreover impress their stamp on the cells that build them. But dominating everything within it is the quality of the consciousness informing the structure in its totality, that of a particular human being in this instance. Thus while each entity in the universe is an individual in its own right, at the same time it influences and is influenced by everything around it. From this perspective the cosmos can be seen as an interlocking series of lives and grand consciousness…

We can extend this concept to the earth, which is also formed of individual lives such as the minerals, vegetables, animals and humans, even the phenomena of day and night, seasons, climate and atmospheric variation affect our lives profoundly. While we note the physical effects of such cycles, we are only beginning to discover the magnetic relations between the planet as a whole and all its parts. Expanding our perspective further, the earth can be viewed as an organ within the solar system…

When we imagine clusters of galaxies as molecules within some cosmic substance, we become aware of the relativity of our human perspective. Such a view is both humbling and exalting, for while from one standpoint we seem to shrink to nothingness, from another we see that we ourselves are universes containing hosts of smaller lives…

Whether of man, the earth or the atom, in the same way everything in the universe from atom to super galaxy may also be **a many layered being!!! ** A conscious individual entity expressing itself on various invisible levels… and surrounded by innumerable various stages of development in concert with the interconnectedness of all things. Alas we notice Gd!!!

Now considering that everything is affected by the smaller lives composing it and the larger lives it composes, our actions have a wide ranging influence on all around us, from our cells to the solar system, including humanity. Therefore, unity is not something to be achieved, but a fact embedded in the most fundamental structure of the universe which needs only to be recognized…

This extremely close connection among all living things makes it clear that true ethics is not an arbitrary code imposed for utilitarian or other reasons, but an expression of the structure of the universe and of its operations in human life and behavior. **From this standpoint the suffering and disturbances in the world come not from inherent evil or divine punishment, but from man’s inability or refusal to conform to the workings of nature, i.e., to the workings of those beings which are the earth and the solar system. Just as cells cause the whole body to suffer ill effects when they disrupt its established processes, so man like a wayward cell, throws the various spheres of the earth into turmoil when he does not cooperate with the processes demanded by the organism to which he belongs… **

[RainmanTime]

Right, I’d forgotton how bad at debating you can be…

Right, and I’d forgotten that you are one of those Euros who does nothing BUT debate, rarely takes action, and when action IS taken, it is too little, too late. Therefore, I reserve the right to respond to only what I wish to in this thread, and make my point for exactly why America IS the world’s police force.

Are you assuming that I had never spoken out about Saddam’s practicies before it was mentioned by the US? Maybe you thouhgt he was a good guy back during the Iran-Iraq war, but don’t assume that the same is true for everybody else.

I don’t care about you, as an individual, and I certainly do not form my opinions on people who do nothing more than “speak out”. “Actions speak louder than words” is truth, not just a trite saying. Neither I nor any informed American ever thought Saddam was a “good guy”. But given what Tehran did to our people in 79, there was little point in wasting American lives on those swine if Saddam was willing to do it for us.

And thatks to the Coalition he might be freed, put back in charge of his country with the US and the UK in his debt and it being nigh-on impossible for anyone else to ever challenge the legitimacy of his authority again.

Total speculation, clearly based on your bias against the war. Why not stop trying to predict the future and let’s just see what happens, shall we? Hmmmm?

Another way of saying “tactics”. This post is your one and only warning - stop it and grow up.

I was not referring to you, I was referring to the Senate motion you mentioned. Your skin is way too thin.

Yes, now they’re kidnapping and assasinating each other’s leaders, desending into civil war as well as continuing suicide bombings and arbitrarily (and illegally) annexing each other’s land, cutting hundreds and thousands of innocent civilians off from their only means of survival. Much better.

Yes, I’d say it is much better. At least they are learning their lesson that killing innocents is certainly not going to get you anything. Of course you realize that all they need to do is renounce and crack down on terrorism, and both the US and Israel will return to the table? You obviously have so little military intelligence/operations background that you cannot seem to get it through your head that there are few ways to deal with killers. Isolation is the passive form, and if they continue to kill, then they themselves must be killed. It’s quite simple.

As this is your opinion, I never want to hear you refering to resolutions sanctions or anything to do with the UN as legitimising the US’ actions again.

As long as the UN amounts to nothing more than a political game, with rules that are never enforced, then I and my countrymen are fully capable and permissable in playing the game.

I expect “we saved your asses in WWII” from rabid patroitic right-wing militant yanks when they’ve run out of real arguments, but to claim that the rest of Europe was doing nothing before America enterd the wars? Ludicrous and more than a little disrespectful to the more than 39 million Europeans who died in WWII alone, not including the millions of Jews and other innocents. Very tacky and tasteless, there.

Correction - We saved your asses in WWI AND WWII. I never said the countries of Europe did nothing. However, what they DID do was MUCH too late to prevent the world wars from erupting and dragging others into them. Sorry, but the historical record is clear and it does not look at all good for European politics and the ability to work together. The very fact that your governments could not craft a lasting peace out of Versailles is what lead to WWII. You didn’t listen to the US at Versailles, did you? Noooo… France simply HAD to have their way (what has changed in that country?), and they were intent on humilitating and punishing the Germans. As a result of this, the US Congress never ratified it. And when Hitler comes to power the governments of Europe go back to their ways of pacification…once again, action was taken, and it was too little too late.

And since I intend to ignore all your other sniveling points, I wish to focus on a point that has been mine in this thread, and stretching back to our other discussions about American hegemony long ago: ACTION. This is a board about time and time travel. Taking action in an expedient timeframe to avoid disaster is more important than debating endlessly over what is the “right” action. As I say, the evidence of this is clear in two world wars.

No, you are not.

Yes, we are, by the default position that no one else has the power, and even if some countries did, they would likely not have the will. I am now going to recount a long list of “reasons” why we are not only taking action as the world’s police force, but why we are justified in doing so. You can “debate” these all you want, but seeing as how these stretch all the way back to 1979, I’d say that my country has had just about enough…and if no other nation wants to help us clean up this mess, then we will do it alone.

NOV 1979 - Attack on American Embassy in Tehran, and hostage ordeal.
APR 1983 - 63 people killed in Beirut bombing of US Embassy.
OCT 1983 - 241 US Marine soliders killed in Beirut (uhhh…they were there trying to keep peace!)
DEC 1983 - Bombing of US Embassy in Kuwait (yes…the people we eventually forgave and liberated!)
SEP 1984 - Another bombing attempt at Embassy in Beirut.
APR 1985 - US soliders killed by bomb in Spain.
AUG 1985 - Bombing at Rhein-Main base kills 22.
OCT 1985 - Disabled american Leon Klinghoffer executed during Achille Lauro hijacking.
APR 1986 - TWA Flight 840 hijacking, in which 4 Americans are killed.
DEC 1988 - 259 passengers (Americans and others) killed on Pan Am 103.
JAN 1993 - Terrorists kill two CIA agents in Langley Virginia.
FEB 1993 - First World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed, over 1000 injured.
NOV 1995 - 7 men and women killed in Riyadh military complex bombing.
JUN 1996 - Kohbar Towers bombing kills 19 and injures 500.
AUG 1998 - US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.
OCT 2000 - 17 killed in USS Cole bombing.
SEP 2001 - WTC destroyed and over 2800 killed.

If you notice, during this entire time period stretching all the way back to 1979, the US had falled into the same “do nothing” pacifist attitude that embraced Europe thru two world wars. It is likely because we were sensitized from our Vietnam experience. But this list should be enough evidence that:

1. The US did not start this war with fundamentalist Islamist terrorists.
2. The US was extremely slow to anger and retaliation. We took our lumps and did what we could in the political arenas.
3. The last attack was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back. We will no longer follow the “European model” of pacification. We have been awoken from our slumber of complacency.

You go ahead and debate all you wish. I will not address you again. I honestly do not feel that you have enough of a sense of history to really appreciate all the things that have been done for you to have your freedom. Timely action to save lives and kill murderous criminals will trump any debate…always.

RMT

[RainmanTime]

Just as cells cause the whole body to suffer ill effects when they disrupt its established processes, so man like a wayward cell, throws the various spheres of the earth into turmoil when he does not cooperate with the processes demanded by the organism to which he belongs…

Excellent post, CAT, and very well put. It prompts me to say (in my usual way that Roel and others may think arrogant):

Whether you believe it or not, and whether you like it or not, we are ALL a single, interconnected system. By denying, ignoring, and/or refusing to “find” God’s power in yourself, you are actually contributing to the woes of the world, because you believe you are different and separate from all else. Why? Because you think your senses tell you everything. You think your sole power of reason is somehow more knowledgeable or more powerful than the sum total of all consciousness and energy.

This is the ultimate arrogance: Denying your own part of the integrated whole. Declaring yourself “king of self” and “all others are obviously wrong because my senses and reason tell me it is so.” I pray you who deny the unity that CAT speaks of are awakened before the others have moved on in evolution.

RMT

[KerrTexas]

I expect “we saved your asses in WWII” from rabid patroitic right-wing militant yanks when they’ve run out of real arguments, but to claim that the rest of Europe was doing nothing before America enterd the wars? Ludicrous and more than a little disrespectful to the more than 39 million Europeans who died in WWII alone, not including the millions of Jews and other innocents. Very tacky and tasteless, there.

All of those that participated against Hitlers Regime deserve respect regardless from which country they originated. I hope you are not minimizing what the United States had acheived during that era. Without the manufacturing power of the United States, many countries would have fallen, and many more innocent people would have been killed by the German Regime.

My dad told me of flying into an airfield as they prepared to fly to England. He said that there were military planes from horizon to horizon on the ground. There were so many planes they could hardly find places for all of them. And that was just one field of many. He knew then that the war would be won by the Allies. I wonder what would have happened if U.S. military goods never left our country? As brave and courageous the others were, they just didn’t have the resources to continue a war against a country like Germany for a sustained period of time.

[RainmanTime]

Something just occured to me…

I hope it wasn’t too painful.

What does happen if we look at it statistically?

Your primary, glaring analytical flaw in your simplistic analysis is that the underlying assumption is that “all other things being equal…” One only need to look at one, major difference where the comparitive subjects were not equal:

1. Saddam - Dictator never elected to power by a free electorate. Rule of terror, not of law.

2. Bush - Electorally-appointed president over a government instilled with checks and balances, limited to no more than two terms, able to be denied a second term if the electorate so chooses, and able to be removed from office if he violates the laws of the land.

How useful do you think statistics actually are in this situation, without context?

Based on the way you craft them, not very useful at all.

RMT

[KerrTexas]

Both of you guys should take a breather. You are both taking swings at each other, and I dont even remember who started what or when. It is o.k. to have a different view of the world without slamming each other constantly.

Both of you are making good points, both of you have information to present, but there isn’t any need to get personal. I wonder if you are even really reading the posts or just seeing what insults have been thrown your way.

I have been using a signature line on most e-mails and I will provide a translation for you…

• In nomine Patris, Filij, & Spiritus sancti, ite in pace ad loca vestra: & pax sit inter nos & vos!

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, go in peace unto your places; peace be between us and you!

Religious..yes..but the important portion is **go in peace unto your places; peace between us and you! **

There is enough negativity in the world without you both adding to it on subjects that will never be resolved by the methods you are utilizing.

[trollface]

I never said the countries of Europe did nothing.

That’s exactly what you said.

Correction - We saved your asses in WWI AND WWII.

I have lost all respect for you and your aggressive xenophobia. I hope your closed-mindedness brings you happiness.

I will not address you again.

No, I note you didn’t address any of the trickier questions, such as American-sponsored genocide of indegenous people or American sponsorship of terrorism, either. I suppose it’s easier if you just pretend it’s not true.

Timely action to save lives and kill murderous criminals will trump any debate…always.

And thus Rainman explains consisely and clearly the philosophy of terrorists all around the world, who prefer killing to political debate. Well done.

OvrLrdLegion said:
All of those that participated against Hitlers Regime deserve respect regardless from which country they originated.

I agree. Trust me, I was not denigrating those Americans who serverd, or who helped the war effort in any way. It is because I agree with you that I find it so distasteful that Rainman is crapping on the memories of my Grandfather who died and my Grandfather who was permanantly disabled fighting in the wars, as well as everyone else who suffered or died - just so that he can make a cheap point by waving his flag of jingoism. Utterly reprehensible.

Rainman again:
I hope it wasn’t too painful.

You stuck to your promise to not reply to me again for all of 2 hours, I see.

Your primary, glaring analytical flaw in your simplistic analysis is that the underlying assumption is that “all other things being equal…”

[/quote]

My point exactly. See where I said this:

How useful do you think statistics actually are in this situation, without context?

[Rhudey]

I wonder what would have happened if U.S. military goods never left our country? As brave and courageous the others were, they just didn’t have the resources to continue a war against a country like Germany for a sustained period of time.

I can’t believe how off-topic this thread has become. I know I’m going to regret jumping in to this but I will anyway. I think that claiming that the US was necessary in overthrowing Hitler is somewhat incorrect. They did “speed up” the process, but when Hitler invaded Russia while fighting Britain in my mind is the turning point of the war. Once that happened he was on the road to defeat. What the Americans may have done is limit the European countries that would have been taken over by the Soviets by speeding up the process.

[nicknack]

This is a bit of a Mickey Mouse explanation, but this page should explain it for you: http://pages.emerson.edu/students/benjamin_delahaye/ml/science.html

I see what the site is getting at. Perhaps we should leave this unknown to the scientists. It is rather strange because there is no absolute theory that there is evolution.

I’m sorry, what’s this supposed to be evidence of? That we share many genes in common with even seemingly unrelated species as rats (including dormant “tail genes”) would suggest that we did, indeed, all evolve from a common root, would it not? And that they are remarkably similar would show that small changes in the structure of DNA can lead to far more significant changes on the outside, would it not? Which would be in line with evolution.

Ah. But it changes things. Now that we know this, many things may still be hidden. After all, scientists still do not understand the whole thing about genomes yet. Maybe we did come from somewhere simliar, but in my case created by the hands of God. Maybe this common root, was what life is itself? The cell that started it all?

See, I don’t pretend to know all the answers, but I keep challenging my own believes by asking myself questions. I hope you’re doing the same. All I suggest is that you do not unthinkingly accept the existence of god.

Which is why I’m trying to find answers to prove that there is a God too.

He doesn’t have to solve all our problems. I’d be surprised if he even solved one! So far he has done nothing for the world. If god really did exist, I don’t see why innocent godloving people should still suffer? I’d understand if he’d make me suffer, since I don’t believe in him… I’d understand if he’d make murderers and rapist suffer… but why do religious people have to suffer?

You see we have this free will right? Didn’t I write in my previous reply what may happen if God solved mankind’s problems. If he solved one, people may ask for more, we are greedy by nature. If not, he may have solved problems, but he did not reveal that he does it, so you say he had done nothing. So if he did and he revealed himself, people would be greedy too. In the comic, Thor was a nice, loving god who cared for the human’s survival and problems, he helped them by giving them FREE energy and food. His providence was world-wide. However, it backfired. That may be the same if God did the same thing. So instead of coming to disrupt our world, stop our stock markets and destroy the balance of the world’s economy, since anyway there will still be unbelievers and skeptics.

If it was predetermined that my parents were to concieve me, they would have had no free will in the matter of how they acted which caused them to meet, and all subsequent descisions that led to my birth. They may have had the illusion of free will, but free will is what they didn’t have.

Have you ever read the seminal comic book The Watchmen? In it there is only one actual “superhero” with powers, and he’s close to omnipotent. In an argument with his girlfriend he declares that he can see the future. She asks him why, then, he acted in the way he did, even though he knew it would cause the argument it did (and why he reacted with surprise when she revealed a secret to him). He replys that everything is predetermined, including his responses. Her response is “are you telling me that you, the most powerful being in the universe, are nothing but a puppet”. His reply is simply “we are all puppets. I’m just the only one that can see the strings”.

Point being, if it was predetermined by God that I would be born then my parents had the strings attached and everything was determined in such detail that even the specific sperm that fertilised the specific egg was known in advance. The strings were definately attached. that my parents couldn’t see the strings doesn’t mean that they weren’t there. That my parents thought they had free will doesn’t mean that they did.

Determanism and free will are mutualy exclusive.

I was stressing on understanding my theory. They already made this choice, the free will. History, present and the future. Outside time, it has already been done. But time within, it’s going at its own speed and at the same time we are making our choices. This is free will. Is a couple responsible for having an autistic child no matter what? Like I said, they have already made their decisions, however, in the course of time they have yet to made it.

True, so do you believe that we have free will or do not? I digress though. I already mentioned that time is already completed from the Alpha and the Omega. History and future has already been done and decided by every choice we make. We are only replaying the course of time.

Gd is a hierarchy, THE HIERARCHY!!!

No offense. What you are saying are exactly the same thing cults and New-Agers are spreading.

[trollface]

I think that claiming that the US was necessary in overthrowing Hitler is somewhat incorrect.

Well, while I think that you’re right in saying that the US’ direct, hands-on involvement in WWII is often overstated (particularly the atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki), an often neglected aspect of US involvement in that conflict was the help that they gave before their official involvement when the Japanese declared war on them. The help that the US gave in terms of equipment and financial help cannot be underestimated.

It’s sad that it’s often forgotten that there’s more ways to help out in a war than just sending troops to kill and be killed.

nicknack said:
Ah. But it changes things. Now that we know this, many things may still be hidden. After all, scientists still do not understand the whole thing about genomes yet. Maybe we did come from somewhere simliar, but in my case created by the hands of God. Maybe this common root, was what life is itself? The cell that started it all?

I really don’t understand what you’re getting at here. Can you rephrase this, please?

True, so do you believe that we have free will or do not?

I think we do, within certain biological limits. We don’t have ultimate control over our emotions, some less than others. Also, there are those with chemical imbalances affecting their modes of thought, and all manner of things like that.

[Roel_van_Houten]

We assume He would step in if He was there, but I guess God figures He won’t for whatever reasons are his alone.

But, did it ever occur to you that maybe there could be a slight possibility that god doesn’t show himself for the simple reason that he doesn’t exist? Just a thought.

Roel

[Roel_van_Houten]

It prompts me to say (in my usual way that Roel and others may think arrogant):

The reason I think it’s arrogant, is because you think you know all these things, while **in my view ** they’re complete and utter nonsense. I know you don’t mean to be arrogant, but it does feel that way. Add to that the fact that to me there is no proof and/or indication whatsoever that something remotely similar to a deity even exists or ever existed.

This is the ultimate arrogance: Denying your own part of the integrated whole. Declaring yourself “king of self” and "all others are obviously wrong because my senses and reason tell me it is so.

Whoa there… I’m not saying you are obviously wrong, I’m merely giving my opinion. I even stated several times that I can’t proof god doesn’t exist. YOU are the one who keeps telling me I’m wrong and that what you say is true, no matter what I believe. In other words, you don’t respect my opinion.

I pray you who deny the unity that CAT speaks of are awakened before the others have moved on in evolution.

Oh please… I hope that’s what you meant with “this is the ultimate arrogance”.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but many wars and conflicts in the world concern religion. I think the world would be much better off without religions.

Roel

[Roel_van_Houten]

Mmmh… I guess I should start moderating my own posts I agree with Rhudey, this thread is waaaaaay off topic… I think we should focus on discussing timetravel. I don’t think we’re going to agree on these subjects any time soon and although I enjoy discussing these topics, they’re not related to timetravel.

[trollface]

Hmmm, ever thought of having a “general chit-chat” forum?