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I doubt it,

Firstly - i am only interested in its ability for street aplication, Some of the ground aspects and obviously the complete stand up system. Therefore i’m not interested in competing. I doubt i will in the future as its not really my intention with it. However, never say never…I’d have to put on weight first though, which i find hard.

Secondly, i learn it from doormen generally, As such they do not compete on a professional level. But i like their attitude towards it though, as it matches my own view. I know some of them want to though.

Over in the uk, cage fighting is still bigger then the UFC - though the gap seems to be closing.

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That’s one thing he is good at spin.

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I must admit there are some apsects of 9/11 that are quite alluring to the imagination. But this is dangerous water to tread. There are many people around the world that are just praying this causes the controversy it so easily could. The same people that planned it would likely have also have planned to kill two birds with one stone, and cause political unrest.

However it is certainly one almighty claim. Generally “facts” are considered provable “evidence”. In which case you have to present your findings. Not just other peoples opinions or things that fit with your opinion. You need to list the things that are provable events only. Not just things that lend themselves to relative speculation.

I think that few to none on this forum have the knowledge to say that the “fact” is, we have been lied to. Which is not something you should spout out of mere opinion alone.

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Tik,

This is the last post i make on this - if you want to discuss it further, i will do it over PM as it doesnt belong here. But really, we are coming from different angles, as such we would not get anywhere.

Ok maybe i don’t. Maybe i am a sorry loser who likes to say i do, just to appear ‘hard’. you are welcome to this opinion.

I did not say that. I said that IN THE UK, cage fighting is still bigger than the UFC, but the gap is narrowing (ie UFC is starting to catch on as it is in US). Really they are the same thing anyway. Your “expertise” (rather mentality) in MMA has not impressed me so far.

Interesting - I could tell you about people that have used BJJ techniques under practical senarios. Are you saying that my friends are liars. It is not optimal as i mentioned before and very dangerous/ risky to use. I wouldn’t recommend it myself, some people adapt it to work. It works, but not towards multiple attackers (i’m talking ground work here specifically).

MMA is a concept. UFC is sporting application of a concept that was create back in the 70’s. Your hang up is, that you cannot see past the sport. But if this is your main focus, thats a non issue.

You remind me of someone who wants to argue over football teams and goal statistics. That doesnt interest me one bit.

kind regards,
Olly

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Tik & Peepo:

I could really care less what you think about me. I don’t base my life or self-value on what people think about me. Now with regard to this:

If you think what I share is spin, then I am afraid you would have to agree that Alex Jones is the biggest spin doctor on the internet.

Now let me correct your assertion above… I do NOT even attempt to answer questions or issues that either (a) I am not experienced in or (b) there is not enough evidence to provide accurate answers. I submit that this is why you and peepo don’t like me. You think I act as a “know it all”, but if you look carefully I will ONLY comment with authority on those things that I KNOW THAT I KNOW. You will find that this is the mark of intelligence: An intelligent person knows when he/she does not know enough on a subject so they keep their mouths shut. As such, I am rarely shown to be wrong because I don’t venture into areas where I have not done my homework.

And now let me share with you an extremely important premise with regard to investigations that it is apparant that both of you do not follow. I am professionally trained in aircraft accident investigations (among other things). The single most important precept of investigating ANYTHING is as follows: DO NOT SPECULATE ON QUESTIONS FOR WHICH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO ANSWER.

Tik, I will admit that some of your questions are good ones. But where we appear to differ is that I refuse to believe (or even infer) an answer to any of those questions when there is NO EVIDENCE to support any form of answer. However, both you and peepo appear to be the typical conspiracy types who will allow their minds to go from a well-posed question to some form of “conclusion” that because these questions remain unanswered, that this must be some sort of evidence against the government as being complicit in 9-11. That is just VERY BAD INVESTIGATIVE TECHNIQUE. And if you think I am giving you “spin”, all you need to do is check with any other professional investigator, and they will tell you the danger of speculating or inferring about questions for which no evidence is in existence to support an answer.

These are the FACTS OF INVESTIGATION that lead to my opinion that peepo is weak-minded… for it is a weak mind that will assume something must be true due to a LACK OF EVIDENCE.

You may be an expert in MMA, Tik, but you are far from any kind of professional in investigating anything related to physics and engineering. And the fact that you have been onsite for a demolition does not make you a structural engineering expert who is qualified to make claims about the physics of building destruction.

Sorry, but I call them as I see them.
RMT

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In Reply to: These are the FACTS OF INVESTIGATION that lead to my opinion that peepo is weak-minded… For it is a weak mind that will assume something must be true due to a LACK OF EVIDENCE.

And yet you claim that you are so smart? So your conclusion is I am weak minded due to the lack of evidence? What are you talking about? I have said over and over to do your own research!! You say that your investigation lead to the conclusion that I am weak minded? What did you investigate? You keep saying you need facts and yet you fail to seek those facts yourself. I said before in this forum that I had nothing to prove to you. But since you need someone to hold your hand and show you things, I will post one of many Structural Engineer’s that have come forward and said that those buildings were blown up. Now I will say this slowly for you so you can understand…ok?

Charles N. Pegelow Structural Engineer

His resume;

Education:
B. S. Civil Engineering 1972, Lamar University
B. S. Mathematics 1972, Beaumont,Texas

Experience:

Present: FULTON CONSTRUCTION COMPANY - private consulting engineer/ contract

1998: Contract Engineering - Paragon Engineering Inc. (Houston, TX)

  1. Shell Nigeria onshore gas gathering compressor flow stations and pipeline export station.
  2. Mozambique - offshore field development and design for 4 caisson platforms and one central gas export caisson platform.

1997: Contract Engineering - Reading and Bates (Brownsville, TX)
Structural / construction project engineer for the upgrade of Rig 41 for 1000 meters drilling depth. Engineering, construction, scope of work for the support steel for the riser turn-down sheaves, substructure reinforcement, and many miscellaneous structures.

1994-1996: Contract Engineering - Fulton Construction Company (Houston/Livingston)

1994-1995: Hudson - McDermott (Houston)
LNG plant and export terminal for Trinidad. Cost optimization study and conceptual design for jetty and dredging, preparing bid tender documents and design specifications for jetty design / gangway / dredging / bulk steel / nav-aids / and misc. Items. Plant foundation and steel design.

1979-1993: Conoco, Inc. (Houston)
Company project structural engineer and design engineer on various projects including drilling and production platforms, gaslift injection platforms, living quarters platforms, and many miscellaneous deck extensions, skids, and access platforms. Duties included feasibility studies, reviewing and writing specifications, design calculations, computer input/output, review/checking structural drawings, scope of work, design premises for outside source work, interfacing with other disciplines, and writing various reports.

1977-1979: Brown and Root, Inc. (Houston)
Structural designer of Gulf of Mexico type platforms. Also mud slide resistant platforms. Deck design, jacket tubular, foundation analysis, flotation and launch analysis, lifting and installation analysis.

1976: King-Wilkinson Ltd. (Scotland, U.K.)
Project management team for the installation of Occidental Petroleum’s Claymore “A” platform. Duties included structural design of pile elevator clamps, pile alignment clamps, miscellaneous installation skids and platforms. Review and recommendation of bids for grouting and pile driving. Also, rigging review, pile driving sequence, and module installation.

1974-1976: Earl and Wright Consulting Engineer, SEDCO (San Francisco)
Structural design of North Sea type platforms, deck modules, large tubular joints, control capsules, deck support trusses, punching shear design, and parameter study for laterally loaded large diameter piles for Arabian Gulf SBM’s, Semi-submersible platforms.

1972-1974: Associated Engineering Consultants (Houston)
Structural design, analysis, drafting and checking of structural drawings for commercial buildings. Steel structures, foundation, post tension concrete structures, tilt-up construction and high rise building structures.

Now go and look it up ok, I’m sure you will spin this so it will fit what you want to say. Mr Pegelow has more then enough experience to say what he says. Or is he Qronos 16 to. Oh that’s right everyone is Qronos 16!!!

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Peepo,

Strawman. Kindly please show me where I made this claim. If you cannot, then stop the strawman setups.

Do you have a problem reading what I actually write? I believe I made it clear that my opinion of your being weak-minded results from coming to conclusions that something happened without evidence. Get that? The weak-minded will jump to conclusions because they can pose a question which there is no evidence to support. Please read my actual words.

Yes, you have. And to again prove your weak-mindedness it appears you have raced to the conclusion that I have not done my own research. You assume too much.

Yet again we see you putting words in my mouth. Please read what I wrote above.

I have done significant investigation and computations with respect to the aircraft events of 9-11, and ALL of them have debunked the likes of people who claim “inexperienced terrorists could never have pulled it off.” The EVIDENCE, in FACT, does show that they could, indeed have pulled it off. I have also done investigation and engineering computations of loads on steel under severe thermal stress. Have you done THIS type of investigation, or have you just gone looking for people’s unsubstantiated opinions? Do you know or are you familiar with Euler’s formula, which is used to determine when columns will buckle under stress?

Once again you are assuming something about me that is untrue. Moreover, for all the whining you do about this topic, YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE ANY FACTS YOURSELF!

Indeed you do not, for you would need to present evidence to prove anything to me (or any other reasonable investigative analyst).

And it is when YOU take on a tone like this that I feel fully vindicated to take-off the kid gloves and rip you a brand new a-hole. Let the record show that I have remained civil throughout this discussion, and it is you who has resulted in childish put-downs such as this. And yet you have branded me as the childish one.

I am well aware of this gentleman’s appearance on a conspiracy theorist radio show.

Here is where you fail. Look what up? His comments on a radio program? Again I must point out to the weak-minded that there are no computations, analysis, or calculations (evidence) to support his gum-flapping. Engineers perform analysis, via equations, that demonstrate FACTS. When you can show me a paper he has published with his detailed analysis to support his verbal opinions, THEN I will have something to sink my teeth into.

And I am not doubting that (if, in fact, he does have those credentials… I was not able to find Mr. Pegelow’s name in the Texas register for Professional Engineers…I found that a bit odd. Nor could I find Fulton Construction Company as a registered engineering firm in Texas. Do you know what the word “shill” means?)

So once again you have provided no evidence, and all you have done is referred to someone’s opinion which is nowhere (that I can find) backed up by a professional paper that sets out his analysis. I’ve got to go to work right now, but I assure you I can come back tonight and refute at least one or two elements of Mr. Pegelow’s stated opinions. In the mean time, I suggest you get a grip on your own ego, and perhaps share some REAL EVIDENCE before you shoot your mouth off further. The more you try to prop-up someone else’s opinion without being able to support it with facts (or your own analysis) the easier it is to make you look like a weak-minded fool.

And don’t forget…you started the name-calling game. I will simply be the one to finish it.
RMT

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Tikmovado called it, he said your nothing more then a spin master. Boy was he right about you. All you do is spin spin spin!!! Spin city with you. All you are is a little man who thinks if he post a bunch of words he will look bigger then he really is. You jump all over anybody who has an opinion on anything on this board. Someone post facts about something then you spin it to fit what you want it to fit. Did you get your lunch taken from you all the time when you were a kid? When a person as yourself has to constantly call someone weak minded that person is trying to cover up a short coming in his own life. Is this true? Do you have a short coming? I wonder what could that be?

Are you happy in your life? We all care about people who post here, and we want to see you happy. Now why don’t you stop the name calling or I will call your Mom and tell her what you are doing. And one more thing spin master, no one mention Alex Jones and yet you keep bringing up his name. Did he beat you up or something? You seem to have it in for him. Im sure we will hear from you soon spin master.

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It is interesting how you never respond to the relevant points that I make about your arguments. You accuse me of spin, and this entire response from you is nothing but spin of your opinions about me.

I am extremely happy in my life. And you?

False. Get your facts straight. #1 - Qronos16 mentioned Alex Jones more than once in this thread. #2 - YOU were the one who cited two of Alex Jones’ websites in THIS reply.

I don’t enjoy making you look foolish, but if you insist on posting nonsense and continue to avoid facts, the only weapons I need to use against you are the facts. BTW, you have cited ONE engineer (whos credentials cannot be verified as yet) but you said “one of many”. Care to give me some more names of engineers who have come forward…and provided real analysis? And beyond this, how do you think your one cited engineer’s opinion stacks up against SEVERAL engineers who made their analysis available in Popular Mechanics?

There is certainly someone spinning around here, but it is not me. )

I hope you are ready for my rebuttals to some of Mr. Pegelow’s statements. It should be funny reading how you deal with those facts. I suggest you might want to study-up on Euler’s equation for column buckling. I will even give you some material to read the FACTS upon which my rebuttal is based: HERE.
RMT

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Spin spin spin spin, Tikmovado called you out as a spinster and he is correct. You are so sad spin master. All the original claims by the government have been change 5 times since they came out with them. And a 5th grader in school knows that the fuel that was in those jets can not burn hot enough to have brought down those buildings. Not to mention most of the fuel burned off in the initial explosion. As for building 7, no jet hit the building at all and yet it simply fell down. But you will say jet fuel brought down building 7. I think everyone can now see that you are nothing more then a spin master. As for responding to relevant points that you make, you have not made any. All you do is take what someone says and spin it in a way so it matches what you want it to match. A person as yourself lives in a fantasy world and nothing anyone says or proves to you will be good enough. When the sh** hits the fan, and it will, I would love to be standing right in front of you to see the look on your face. As for posting more engineers names? Why? All your going to do is spin it and say they don’t check out or you know more then they do. Millions and MILLIONS of Americans are waking up to the fact that 9-11 was an inside job!!!

Now back on topic, Qronos 16, was he a time traveler or not? Who knows but he sure was right about all the phoney terror bust that would take place before the mid terms. And the heat wave was really bad this year. As for the rest of his claims, only time will tell.

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Yeah i guess you must be right? before the Gracies there was actually NO ONE that was trying to promote the concept of MMA. The fact that JKD (as one example) was around before anyone knew the name Gracie probably doesnt say anything to you either, does it. In the 70’s (i.e. NOT sport) there were many martial artists that were spreading the concept of MMA. Your problem is all you see when i mention “MMA” is sport UFC style fighting. And this is what i find quite amazing. I certainly agree UFC has single handedly done the most to promote it, but to say a Gracie “created it” borders on the rediculous. Even my 18 year old mate (that is just starting out) understands where MMA came from.

Basically, i think i may actually go and bang my head against a brick wall in the minute…

Now we are getting somewhere. UFC is a brand name. MMA is a concept (i think this is what you need to drill into your slightly limited outlook). MMA literally means mixing martial arts to make a superior and complete fighting system, as such - is a style. UFC only pushed this into the spotlight of the sporting world - i think we at least agree on this.

I bet you also heard that rumour that the gracies created the planet in 7 days too?

P.S. Gracie JJ is also pretty much now regarded as a traditional system, due to their arrogance to change and step up their game. And well, we all know how that ended recently. They’ve always been flawed strikers, thus their MMA has fallen behind the current standard. So much so, the back lash played in fact, on quite a truthful description of thier current situation.

regards,
Olly

312

Did you really need a ‘time traveler’ to tell you that? Does this simple logic actually impress you enough to view it as evidence in any way.

Please tell me, surely not?!

313

In Response to: Did you really need a ‘time traveler’ to tell you that? Does this simple logic actually impress you enough to view it as evidence in any way.

Please tell me, surely not?!

No Qronos did not impress me, I simply noted that he said that. And you are correct, you do not need a time traveler to see that coming. Anyone with a little common sense could see that coming from a mile away.

314

peepo,

I guess that we won’t be getting any “time travel claims” out of this thread so…

A B-767 crashed into the tower and “most of the fuel burned off in the initial explosion”.

Now, it left Logan with approximately 24,000 gallons of Jet-A fuel. I’ll be generous and say that it burned 4,000 gallons before hitting the tower. So it had ~20,000 gallons of Jet-A on board when it struck.

If it burned off 20,000 gallons of fuel in the “initial explosion” it output how much thermal energy in a few seconds? And that energy was insufficient to degrade the support structure of he tower when coupled with the kinetic energy of the impact of 300,000 lbs traveling at ~.75 Mach?

What is the maximum burn temperature of Jet-A (which it should attain in a flash burn when atomized, as you suggest). Isn’t it somewhere in the area of 980 degrees?

How long does it take for ~20,000 gallons of Jet-A to burn off?

Considering that the aircraft was almost wholly contained within the building, how much kinetic energy was transferred to the structure, what course would that kinetic energy take through the structure, what effect would the shock wave have on the structure and at what speed would the shock wave be transmitted through the structure of the building? Would that have any effect of the tensile strength of the structure?

What was the initial stress and strain placed on the structure by the advancing shock wave? I think that this might require some sort of advanced multiple indexed vector analysis (is tensor analysis the correct term?) - but I don’t know for sure.

Just a series of questions. As I said, I’m a bear of little brain so I don’t really know much about physics thus I can’t opine on these issues. I’m interested in your analysis based on the questions.

Thanks for your consideration in this matter.

BTW: Has the primary school education system changed over the years and they now teach advanced physics. metalurgy and aeronautical engineering in the 5th grade?

Its been a very long time since I was in the 5th grade or had any real contact with a 5th grader so, again, I have no opinion or a basis for an opinion here. Your help in this matter would also be much appreciated.

Thanks

315

peepo,

Just a question or two about Charles N. Pegelow:
He received his B.S. in Civil Engineering in 1972. His CV states that the only time that he ever worked on high rise building engineering was 1972-1974 - meaning that he was a very junior engineer just out of his undergradate engineering program who was learning the trade.

Since then he has workd exclusively in the oil industry. (Hmmm…Just an aside, but doesn’t the Bush family also work in the oil industry? Very interesting…that no one has commented on this obvious and possibly conspiratory connection.)

Considering that his CV seems to indicate that he stopped advancing his education some 34 years ago (no MS for instance), especially relative to high rise construction, is it possible that his opinion here could be based on the views of a junior engineer who might not be especially qualified to opine on the situation?

As before, just some questions. I don’t know the answers and I’m not in a position to offer an opinion.

What do you think?

Thanks

316

Darby,

Oh come now, Darby, everyone knows that your whole post is nothing but a lot of spin, spin, spin! ) You can’t actually believe that physics can be used to debunk Peepo’s airtight theories!

And the next thing you know, Peepo will respond that none of your questions are relevant points!
RMT

317

As for your remarks about the 5th grader comment I made, it was just a smart a** response to Spin Master nothing more. Sorry that went over your head. As for the questions you asked about Charles N. Pegelow, simple research into his career as I did will answer all your questions. And if that is not good enough for you contact him and ask him about his career yourself. Again I only brought up 9-11 because some else did here, and I’m not here to answer questions about it. You really want to know the answers to the questions you pose go and research it.

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Darby’s questions are very good ones, I mean he simply poses the questions and he does not assume everyone is beneath him as you do. Anyway Darby seems to be a person who will listen to what someone has to say and not call them Qronos 16 or a phoney or put them down for asking anything. You know like you do spin master.

319

Peepo,

And yet you continue, but still you can provide no scientific facts and evidence to support your conspiracy theories. The more you reply to me without addressing the facts of column buckling that I pointed you to, the more foolish you will end up looking. I guarantee it. But if you insist on continuing, who am I to tell you what to do?

Oh really? So then a fifh grader is familiar with how temperature affects the Young’s Modulus (modulus of rigidity) of steel? I didn’t know they were teaching such things in the 5th grade these days. You see I teach aerospace engineering and we don’t usually get into Young Modulus until the sophomore year structures curriculum. A question I would like you to answer: Are YOU familiar with Youngs Modulus and how it changes over temperature? And are you also familiar with how the lowering of Young’s Modulus has an impact to the Euler column buckling equation I pointed you to?

I’d like you to explain what scientific knowledge this statement is based upon, and substantiate this by citing the thermodynamic property of jet fuel that is most relevant to this conclusion. Can you do that? Because based on my knowledge of jet fuel I do not think your statement is correct.

No, I certainly will not. So again I would ask you to stop putting words in my mouth, and instead address the issues that both I and Darby are putting to you… if you can.

And if everyone can not, as yet, see how limited you are in your actual knowledge of science and physics, they will see it without a doubt as our discussion continues. We already see you do not wish to talk about the facts of column buckling (nor did Mr. Pegelow, for that matter!)

Let me try your strawman tactic: So by saying this are you then saying that the physics of column buckling are not relevant to why the WTC towers collapsed? If that is what you are saying, you clearly do not know physics or structural engineering. I think Darby (and others) would agree that the science of column buckling is the single most relevant issue in explaining why the towers came down.

Now this is truly hilarious, because what you accuse me of doing is EXACTLY and PRECISELY what you are doing in referring to the radio appearance by Mr. Pegelow! You clearly have no scientific knowledge of the physics of column buckling, and all you do is “take what someone says” (Mr. Pegelow) “and spin it in a way so it matches what you want it to match (or believe).” That pretty much describes exactly what you are doing. The difference is, I know the science and the physics behind why the towers fell, and you fail to see how something like column buckling explains why they fell. And so you avoid discussing these facts.

Really, I am not asking for much… I am just asking for you to provide ACTUAL scientific analysis of column buckling that supports your claims and your conspiracy theories. That is not too much to ask, is it, for you to provide SOLID evidence and facts, rather than just someone else’s opinion?

Well, that could be, but I think a more likely answer is that you do not have any other names of credentialed structural engineers who support Mr. Pegelow’s views. And yet, I can point you to the statements of MANY structural engineers who have actually said these conspiracy theories are UNSUBSTANTIATED AND UNFOUNDED. Would you like me to give you some quotes from such people to counter your Mr. Pegelow?

The statments by Mr. Pegelow on that radio show were just as ridiculous as the statements made by Donn de-Grand Pre on Alex Jones’ radio program. They are in the same vein. Mr. Pegelow gave ABSOLUTELY NO analytical evidence for his views. None. Moreover, he did not even attempt to give any form of explanation for how column buckling is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FAILURE MODE that building design engineers consider in their designs. Other statements he made about concrete and rebar are simply incorrect and do not reflect the facts of the WTC design.

Now I would like to call your attention to EVIDENCE in a WTC tower photograph that directly supports the science of column buckling as being the critical failure mode that caused the towers to come down. Take a good look at this photo:

The numbers just below the fire in this photo represent how much deflection (in inches) the structural columns are exerpiencing. As much as 55 inches in one spot! This buckling is caused by two things: (1) The force of the weight of the floors above it and (2) the weaking of the structural rigidity of the columns (Young’s Modulus) due to the heat of the fire.

I would like you to address these facts. They are not spin, as you would like to call it, they are scientific facts, and they are related to the Euler column buckling equation I pointed you to earlier in this thread. By not addressing these facts, and how these facts not only support the official reason for why the towers fell but also debunk your controlled imploision theory, you will simply look even more foolish.

You are in pretty deep right now, Peepo. It is now time for you to put-up or shut-up.
RMT

320

And so do you plan to address the scientific points Darby has made that refute your opinion? Or will you ignore them as well?

Darby is being nice. You gave up your opportunity for me to nice to you when you entered this thread denigrating me, and then further attacked me without addressing the scientific issues.

Every time you replay & call me a spin master and at the same time ignore the scientific points I am making that refute your conspiracy theories, I will continue to turn up the heat on you. You can quit now or keep going. The choice is yours, but I assure you that you are out of your league and you cannot support your conspiracy theory claims.

RMT