Does time exist in the first place?

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Surely all we can say is that "things change".
Intelligent life comes along and notices the changes and wants to observe them, understand them, categorize them. It decides that things change in a certain amount of "time". It comes up with a scale - a way to measure different rates of change.... it comes up with units to measure with. It decides you cannot give the absolute location of anything unless you include "when". So it starts to think of time - once a measurement of change - as a dimension in its own right. And dimensions, as we all know, can be travelled through. "Look," the intelligent life thinks, "we are travelling forwards through time now, aren't we? Then maybe we can move backwards..... etc etc.
But stop. WHAT exactly - apart from the word 'time' - IS THERE that you are supposed to be able to travel through? Nothing. It's not there! It's all just playing with terminology.
This is an interesting concept. What led you to this conclusion? How can something that does not exist control the lives of so many people? What about Einstein? How can we measure what does not exist?
that's a very good question, I've asked that many times myself. It seems we share common views on time (or it not existing). No, in a sense, it doesn't exist, but yes, it does, because millions of people believe it does, and that is the basis of truth. A true thing is only true because the majority of people in a society believe it to be, like religion.
There's really no way to measure if time exists, we do not have the brain capacity to do so, yet, anyway.
I heartily agree with you agreeing with me!
I don't agree that 'truth' is simply what a lot of people believe. I think you could replace the word 'true' in your post with 'accepted'
Unless..... you're referring to reality itself being shaped by our collective expectation.... now that's interesting.
But what I'm saying is that it's 'change' that we actually measure... and you don't talk about travelling through 'change' do you? 'Time' is simply a term used in the process of measuring change. We've come to think of it as a 'thing', even as a dimension, to help us understand process, but 'time' doesn't, in itself, as a thing, exist.
reality being shaped by our collective expectation... I never thought about it that way.

Oh, and I agree with you agreeing with me agreeing with you (i guess that makes sense)
Here's something out of a "Rules of Chance and Laws of the Game" -- a book.

Not maybe entirely accurate, but here's the author's thought on it:

In the beginning there was nothing.
How long can you have nothing?
Well, you have just evoked a unit of measurement!
Call it forever, a yardstick, however one wants to look at it, it still just became a unit of measurement and time was just created!

(It had to come into existence, without time, nothing can be measured, and forces are all measurable, or we are living somehow else in this Universe.)
Ok, so time doesn't exist. I would like to point out that space doesn't exist either. There is nothing as intangable as space.

I've often thought of 'time' (a time) as being equivilent to 'stop', wich in turn, can only be described as a point of location.

So; space= everywhere
time= onewhere

Dr. Einstein would agree, you need both time and space to come up with a definition of either. Billy Gram would agree, the greatest things are intangible.

I agree, "time does exist in the first place".

A fish is aware of everything EXCEPT water.
In some ways i agrre with you. just because we labled it dosnt mean its there. Iv thought of there not not bieng an actuall "time flow" that sits around waiting to be traveresed. If there is, were is it. eseentially, were is time? something cant exist without a place to exist.
<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 10-Jan-02 AT 09:27AM (EDT)</font>

Hi Mac, first I would like to say that you are on the right track. I find you post to be one of simple logic, and I fell this is the best place to be when searching for the true nature of time.
I see no one has taken up the challenge of answering your question. Well this is understandable. You must be carefully when answering other people's questions, because often you must first evaluate your own thoughts on the matter and this could lead you to a new reality that conflicts with what you previously held to be true. For some people this is a good thing and for others well not so good.
I found myself in this position not to long ago while discussing cosmological theory with one of my college professors. As I was challenging his long held view of the nature of space he decided to through me a curve by asking me one simple question, which was "what about time". Well this stop me in my tracks. I had no quick response to this question since I had not planed on discussing time that day. This may appear unusual to some people that I would talk about space with out regard for time, however I have never been satisfied with Einstein's work on this matter. So I often thought about space and time in separate terms, although at the time I had not determined what dissatisfied me about a space-time continuum.
So their I was with only one choice I had to quickly evaluate my thoughts on this matter and produce an answer and be prepared to validate it. As luck would have it, I had recently reviewed Einstein's relativity and other physics data and quickly applied this to the question at hand. While the professor looked at me waiting for my answer, and what seemed like an eternity my brain finally produced the answer.
As I reviewed my answer in my mind, I realized this was a completely new concept of the nature of time. About this time I realized the professor was still waiting for my answer, so in a calm voice I tell him "time does not exist". Even as I am saying these word to the professor I am thinking can this be true, at no time in my life had I such a thought nor had I heard of an ideal that time did not exist. I like so many others just accepted that time exist, but in some unknown form. But the data in my mind could not be denied the true nature of time was that it simply did not exist.
As you might guess the professor was not happy with my answer he quickly reminded me that he read all the books and no one would say such a thing. I agreed and asured him that I was just as surprised by the answer as he was, but never the less it was correct.
The professor and I never finished our discussion as we ran out of time, but it was just as well for the concept that time did not exist was so new to me as well, I needed time to fully understand the data that I used to discover it. Fortunately I stand on the shoulders of great man who's data I depend on has stood the test of time and I simply have to explain how this data applies to the subject at hand.

It would be pointless for me to go into great detail on this matter at this time. The ability to understand and accept my work will depend greatly on ones on level of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter at hand. I say this not to diminish anyone, but to point out that an understanding of basic physics is needed. I also find that most people know just enough about time to realize that a time machine would be the most valuable machine ever built. With this much to gain if you shine the light of truth on them they will run from the light into the darkness in search of their fools gold. This can not be avoided.
i agree a time machine would be the most valuable discoverey of all time. But, what, other than a few questions bieng answered, good could come from it? If you travel into the past,you can only observe, not interfere. The "laws of time" wont let you. Well thats one theorie anyway. I belive travel into the future is impossible, for it is always changing, but that would be one heck of an expirience

it just dawned on me! if we go back in time and cannot change anything, wouldnt that be the same for travelers from OUR future?! and if so than the future is not always in motion. Like you said this changes my perspective on past-future time theories. man this could easily drive us mad!

YES!!! My thoughts exactly!! I have this friend who keeps on talking about time travel and such crap, and I tell him time does not exist!! It is simply our preception of it!!
IN my view time does not exist in the physical. Let me explain.
First off everything is happening NOW. The beings that are here from the future are here physically and non physically. the reason that they say they are from the future is because thay come from a higher point on the evolutionary scale and our future will be like their now when we evolve to that level. They will always be ahead of us but not linear.They exist in the now but their existence is our future. They must allow our now to take place otherwise they would be robbing us of our experience. Humans must be allowed to evolve and grow . We can only grow through experience. They can help us but they won't do it for us. You cannot go back to the past physically only by using your energy body. Everything is made up of energy and that is what it returns to. If you want to view the past you must use your energy body. You will be veiwing the energy of the past not the physical matter which does not exist in that form any more but has transferred to energy. You must learn out of body travel then you can leave this field. But believe me there are those that would try to stop you because they view that as their territory and do not like to share. but remember your experience is here in this now. If you could move yourself to the future physically you would be robbing yourself of this experience. When you travel out of the body you must always return unless you are dead in that case It depends on your development here where you will go next. So value this experience NOW in order to move up the evolutionary latter
You will receive a new body next time. have Joy and Fun lifes a blessing
Have'nt had access to the computer these past few days (One of my sons has a college report due) and thought I'd pop over to this thread for a "Hi-Dee-Ho" & get a gist of your own beliefs about "Time Travel". And not a moment to soon..... Somewhere along the line, it appears that the "Time Navigation" thread "tanked".....

I'm fairly new with this whole computer/inter-net thing, but after getting involved in a few discussion boards (Most involving curiousity about the JFK Assassination), I've come away from it all in complete amazement as to how quickly discussions tend to degenerate into inflamitory & offensive remarks, statements and attacks. And it seems to have become a standard on the inter-net.

I guess I come from the old school of communication, with some level of mutual courtesy being a main rule.....

Anyway, read your own comments & your feeling that the physical body is in-capable of traversing time, whether from present to past or visa-versa, and, though I consider you to be quite the "Class Act", I adamantly disagree.

Being an avid fan of both World & American History, and in comparing of the two, it is nothing less then incredible as to the technological acievements of the "Good 'Ole USA" as opposed to the 5,000 years which preceeded this awesome place, among the youngest of all nations... I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that sometime in the next decade or two, you're going to open up your Daily Newspaper & see full page adds advertising

"Bring Back Your Dead Relatives & Friends...$19.95 per ($50.00 For Three)...!!!

Face it..... This Nation is about the screwiest one of which World History will ever come to know, what with the consistant squabbling and all (Yeah... Like that other thread...), but this guy'll never, and I do mean "Never", under-estimate it's potential.....

I don't have the answers, but the hints are out there. The only reason I had included that story about "Atom Recovery" over at the other thread was that I felt in contained one of those hints ("Scientific"). Unfortunately, the post was mis-understood & took on a life of it's own as it went off into some kind of wacked-out direction.....

Catch ya' later,
Leather Neck
I will only read your post unless someone new comes on because I don't have the time for silliness. I think we can talk to each other like two adult. I agree that we have a mess down here. the problem is how to clean it up. I do agree we need new technologies. But what will we use them for. I think if man continues to be ruled by his dark side we will destroy ourselves before we can make anything that will help us live better lives.
Some of us are trying with help from unseen forces to understand our dark sides in order to stop anymore damage to ourselves and our planet. I don't think that time travel physically can solve the problem but energetically it can. Its just getting people to do the inner work that is so hard. I was a very sick person for a very long time. I only received help when I started asking questions and thinking that there could be another way. I was physically drained not knowing what to do. I took a chance on new age methods and it saved my marriage and my life. Past recall helped me heal wounds I didn't even know I had. No! I don't go around wearing crystals but I have seen healers who are very good at what they do. They keep a low profile and only help those who ask It's not their way to interfer without being asked to. time travel cannnot be given to people who have not mastered their dark side. It is far to dangerous only those who are masters of their own dark sides are given permission to use it. If there are those that have acquired it through force they are certainly being watched and will not get very far. You may be wondering how I know so much . I am a telepathic channeler. Those forces who watch, speak through me because I allow them to. I have been through much training in order to do this job. I have had to learn to be in control of myself not others . I am in a safe place and can use this computer to connect with those who want help. I would never go out in public and reveal what I am. There are things that you would be amazed at but they cannot be revealed at this time. Just watch the news and you can see that technology in the wrong hands is very dangerous indeed. Mankind is much loved but mankind must grow up. I like talking to you and will answer any questions you have. If you are afraid I undertand sometimes these things are to much for people to handle. The times ahead will not be easy for anyone on earth . Things will get worse before they get better. But help does exist, the hard thing is finding it and the next hard thing is accepting it.
Let me get this straight. You left this forum 3 days ago because the TimeTravelActivist whooped your ass. Proved you to be, without a shadow of a doubt “a hypocrite.”

Is it my fault I proved you are full of it Clara? Did you not want me to point that out?

What you claim now is that you’re a human freedom fighter. Trying to imitate the TimeTravelActivists role.

However, your statements are clear. Your not wanting to help humanity. You want to help humanity become spiritual based, by:

Giving up ALL CONTROL!

Succumbing to YOUR NEW AGE GOD!


Give me a break Clara… You’re so full of it!

Why not just tell it how you told it to us before. Why hide the truth from us now? Everybody knows what your real agenda is in posting anyways.

No matter where you post here Clara, the TimeTravelActivist will be 1 step behind you, to make sure he corrects the damage you make.


This is one of your post I could make some sense out of.

Sounds like you've had allot of spiritual and psychic attack in your life. Sorry to hear that!

But Clara I know that you have turned to this new age spiritual crap and its helped you pull out of the rut you are in at present. and I guess if its right and working for you thats all that matters. We live and we learn and we move on. I am only 34 and I've been around the world. I've had the opportunity to learn allot about all cultures and religions and all walks of life and I always try to have an open mind.

I'm not condemning you in your beliefs but I would like to address your new age astral out of body exsperiences. You are taping into a field you really dont know much about. OBE Traveling. When you have these OBE's you can encounter all sorts of entities in this realm good and bad in doing so you can subject yourself to phychic attack. I've come to that conclusion by reading your post above.

Time Travelers have tremendous power over us and the weak minded. They can subconsciously put thoughts and feeling into our minds. They can do this from other dimensions while remaining invisible to our site and in this respect we have no free will. We think we do but in all actuality we really dont. We are constantly and subconsciously being influenced by unknown forces even while we sleep. These are the Time Travelers that me and TTA are trying to expose the truth to you. Whatever they may be physical human time travelers, aliens, or ghosts if they are in another realm other then my physical realm they are considered TIME TRAVELERS. Their main goal is to turn our life into a living hell where the worst hits us at an all time high untill we hit rock bottom so that we look for spiritual enlightenment. They than have us enslaved to the future.

You probably have no conception or true understanding of what I'm trying to convey here. But all said and done it might pass on to others waiting for truth.