"The future ain't what it used to be."

Good and Evil


Hi Rainman, I don’t agree with this rendering of: `ets da`ath towb ra` 'akal yowm 'akal muwth muwth: of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

da`ath is from yada` ‘to know by experience’, ‘towb’ is entirely related to ‘experiencing with the senses’, and ra` means ‘gives misery’.

Another ‘understanding’ of `ets da`ath towb ra` 'akal yowm 'akal muwth muwth would be: Tree (or 'wood' etc.)agreeable experience misery consume time consume die die. And another would be: tree enjoyable sensual experience consume time consume die die. Yet another could be: Gallows agreeable experience to the senses misery devour time devour die die. We can assume `ets doesn’t mean ‘gallows’ because of the implied ‘enjoyment’, so we look for another meaning. And `ets has other wood-related meanings such as ‘flax’ ‘pages’. And coming as it does from, `atsah ‘closed’ whether one interprets `ets, as ‘tree’, ‘wood’ ‘flax’ 'fibre'‘book’ or something else altogether, intrinsically it implies ‘closed’. A better understanding of `ets da`ath towb ra` 'akal yowm 'akal muwth muwth would be: Closed book time experience consume time consume dead die. In my humble opinion, the best interpretation would be: Closed book past (and while it may be) pleasant to experience (it is nonetheless) evil to partake past time is dead (let it) die.

That aside, most people who believe in God would agree that He needs us to know whether our own actions are good or evil, if only to stop ourselves from repeatedly performing evil acts. Therefore, knowledge of subjective good and evil cannot be ‘forbidden fruit’. Knowledge of the good or evil of others could be forbidden because of our propensity to judge. If we are not present when another carries out an act we cannot know (with certainty) whether the act is good or evil. However, were we to go back in time and witness the act of another unfolding before our eyes, we would consider ourselves in a stronger position to know if the act were good or evil. It is that knowledge of the good and evil of another [that we would obtain by going back in time to ‘experience with our senses’ the act unfolding] that would be forbidden.

In my view, common knowledge is that which is known to the majority, such as the wheel, fire and the forward progression of time, which most people take for granted, because thankfully, time travel is still in the hands of the few.
I've withheld myself from replying, but since you've already started 8 threads I just have to share my view. I don't wish to start yet another discussion about religion, since we just finished one in the "Open your eyes!" thread. So I'll keep it short and simple.

I don't care what the bible says about anything, since the bible is a load of crap in my humble opinion :) Again, this is just my opinion and perhaps a bit over-simplified. Anyone is free to discuss it and I don't have anything against it, but it would be a great help if you didn't start a new thread for every reply.

Thank you.

Thank you Roel. As you have granted your kind permission: "Anyone is free to discuss it and I don't have anything against it" I will continue to discuss the Bible and it's relevance to time travel for the remaining (short) duration of my stay in this forum. Yes, there is relevance, I am working my way toward it. Meanwhile, could you put up with me a teensy little bit longer?

I also have a concordance and could just as easily make a case directly opposite to yours. My Christian friend, the Bible is not for private interpretation. The only reason the King James version of the Bible is the "authorized" version is because scholars from all over the world independently studied the texts and then sent their interpretations to each other to get the most objective view possible. Your view is a totally subjective one and it certainly seems that you have sought out "evidence" of your particular view. Technically speaking, even Jesus would have qualified "sinfully?" as entering within the realms of time travel by leaving a totally timeless zone into a finite zone of time (earth). Those who seek to disprove or undermine scriptures use the same method. They only look for those things that prove contradiction or error and, of course, they find it.

One of the greatest warnings in the Bible is the growth of spiritualism in the final days. However, few take into consideration that what also falls under this umbrella is taking concrete truths and "spiritualizing" them away. There is a dualism throughout the Bible and one of the most important of these is the FACT that the Book of Nature is as valid as the word of God. Every spiritual aspect of truth has a physical aspect as well. In a very real sense, you are committing original sin. The sin of Adam and Eve was not in eating the apple, or even trying to lie about it. The sin was in Eve blaming the serpent and Adam blaming Eve. Both objects of their blame was really towards God for creating the serpent in the first place and Eve in the second place. Therefore, to blame "timetravel" as forbidden fruit allows you to fall into the same trap.

There are some in this world, even skeptics, who will have right to the tree of life--never having known the name of Jesus. True, there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved--but His name is represented throughout the book of nature if we can open our eyes to it. In the growth of the seed is shown the kingdom of heaven yet you cannot see Jesus's name there--yet it is. In the timetravel realms, the kingdom of God is shown and the same applies. God gave us dominion over the earth AND we will rule the universe.

When I first picked up the Bible, I studied the original Hebrew and Greek for one reason alone. If it could not tell me about science and how the universe worked, it was a dead book to me. Therefore, I ignored all of the spiritual values and looked for physical values alone. What I found was a mountain of information about science--including time travel and the means of achieving it. Try proving yourself wrong for a change, instead of trying to prove yourself right. It could do you a world of good.

Just one more thing. God said, "I am God and there is no other." He has NO adversary. Satan is only OUR adversary. The Bible clearly states that "I create the darkness, I create the light, I create good, I create evil." God takes the blame for all of it. We should more often do the same. Instead of reading or pointing out sin and thanking God for not "being like that", perhaps we should realize that, in reality, we are worse than those whose "mote" we are trying to point out. What would Jesus do?
Well said, Zerub.
God gave us dominion over the earth AND we will rule the universe.
I agree completely. And not only that, I believe it is self-evident in our evolutionary track, and in the transformation we are currently preparing the way for.

Therefore, I ignored all of the spiritual values and looked for physical values alone. What I found was a mountain of information about science--including time travel and the means of achieving it.
It would seem we have followed the same path, my friend. I have come to the same realizations. These realizations are what excite and encourage me for what we are collectively creating, and converging on. A wonderful time to be alive, IMHO.

Kind Regards,
Great post zerubbabel. Yes, the bible does not only open out to christians but to everybody interested in science and its gaps. A skeptic does not say things without reading its material. Personally, the thing with skeptics is a common misinterpretation of the bible as they have picked up certain verses that seemed most commonly read to the world and deciphered in their own manner. The bible is not a secret book, its a book of facts, science, creation, the end and most importantly our saviour. But that does not hold important to most people people here. I believe even if you are a skeptic, the bible would tell you many things if you read it with a different mind.
I'm interested in science and time travel, but I will *not* read the bible simply for my own reasons which I would prefer not to dicuss here.

I don't think the bible has anything to do with science in the sense that it's just a book for christains or cathloics or prodestain what the hell they are, theres so damn many now.

Thats like picking up a book on hinduism and saying it tells the one and only way to achieve light speed travel.

Sounds to me like the people saying the bible has all these things in it (not refering to you guys) like the bible code and what not, are just people trying to get you to convert.

But as Roel said, this is just my opinion and you may argue you but you won't make me change my mind, well not exactly what Roel said
Meanwhile, could you put up with me a teensy little bit longer?
I don't feel like I have to "put up with you". And you can discuss anything you like, for as long as you wish. Hell, I'd even like to be part of the discussion. I was only asking if you could focus the discussion in one thread, instead of starting a new thread everytime. I don't feel like I'm in a position to grant you anykind of permission... afterall, I'm just another visitor to this board, nothing more, nothing less.

I will continue to discuss the Bible and it's relevance to time travel for the remaining (short) duration of my stay in this forum.
Personally I think the bible is not a very accurate source for information. It's full of contradictions and historical flaws and moreover people tend to interpret it in a way that suits them best. I'm sure you can find "proof" of almost anything in the bible, the question is whether this is valid proof. I say no.

Hi Roel!

Personally I think the bible is not a very accurate source for information.

I could agree with you when it comes to some books within the bible. We all need to remember that it is a book that has evolved over a long period of time. People have added lots of books to it (e.g. the entire New Testament) and people have translated it various ways. I think the accuracy and meaningfulness of some of the later books in the bible is questionable, from a scientific standpoint.

But Genesis is different. And as far as we know, it was the first book of the bible, so it is likely the oldest. And it is written in a VERY structured manner. Much moreso than any other book of the bible. Structure can easily be seen to imply a scientific order of things. I am not trying to convince you or convert you to any way of thinking. I am simply pointing out that, if you remove the aspect of religion from Genesis (which is often what troubles people), there may indeed be "real science" hiding behind the religion that everyone claims it to be.

Think about it like this: If we suddenly came upon some ancient cave paintings, and they had a remote resemblance to equations, or schematic diagrams, or instructions on how to accomplish something....we would study them, right? And we wouldn't necessarily be concerned with the religious convictions of the people that made these cave paintings. We would study them to try to understand what they meant. They might even appear "inaccurate", but that could be for two reasons: The people who made them were wrong, or we who are trying to interpret them are not understanding something that they understood.

This is the way more and more people are looking at the early books of the bible. Some say the entire Pentateuch (first five books allegedly written by Moses) is a scientific treatise. I have not come to that conclusion yet, but I am of the very firm belief that, as a minium, Genesis IS a very scientific treatise. Many others in the world seem to be seeing this same thing, and coming to similar conclusions. Some have even aligned Genesis with the principles of modern cosmology that theoretical physicists say are the foundations of physicality.

When you "throw out" the religious dogma of Genesis, some very interesting data is discovered! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kind Regards,
But Genesis is different.

Perhaps there are less contradictions in Genesis, but still enough to make me chuckle. Of course the bible undeniably holds invaluable historical information, but it's not an accurate source, nor is it proof for the existence of a creator.

Roel...if you wouldn't mind....could you pm me some of the things you consider to be contradictions? Can be Old Testament or New Testament.

It's not for the purpose of trying to prove you wrong or anything...I'm just curious as to what you find contradictory in scripture.

If not...oh well. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The bible may have been translated in many different versions, currently the NIV( New international version ). It has been accepted by many different church leaders and organisations as they are also through with the older versions like the hebrew and greek versions. I don't see why it may have been translated in such a way where there might me many errors or misinterpretations. The bible is a book for christians to source God's word, man's history and unlocked scientfic facts.

The fact that the bible has not been debunked or proven as a hoax shows its credibility. Many men have tried to declare Jesus's ressurection as a hoax and have instead became christians themselves. So I don't really see why we should doubt the bible much at all. The meaning of the bible is actually translated as "The Book". Well, but it is actually all up to a certain individual to believe the bible.

The bible has actually more than 66 books actually. There are many unprinted books like Enoch as it did not pass the cannonial tests. If the bible has many flaws and contradictions, would you mind pointing them out so I can try to explain it? After all, the bible is still alive and well after more than a millenium and has not been proven as a hoax. Would not that give you 50% more credibility that the bible is real?
Roel...if you wouldn't mind....could you pm me some of the things you consider to be contradictions?

Sure, I'll provide you with some clear contradictions. Allow me some time to find some good examples. I've read many books dealing with this subject. There are numerous contradictions throughout the bible; some are the result of misinterpretation, but many are actual contradictions. However, any christian will dismiss them, no matter how evident they are. I suspect you'll be doing the exact same thing.

I'll go through my books and find some contradictions within Genesis.

The bible was created by man to keep the stories of there history. Mix with their belief in god. Look at all the other civilization that had their own stories of how the world was created. Good and evil are just something we can classify. but if you raise your children to hate and tell them it is ok then they will be very normal in the culture they are raised in. but move them to a culture where all of that is evil then you will have a big problem because then the person is outcast and put away for their behavior. Did they think they did any thing wrong. no they didn't. if you take said person from the "GOOD" culture and put them in with the "Bad" culture what do you think will happen. The person will more then likly try to adapt but will be considered weak in the new culture and will most likly die.

We live in this world. We have all evolved together.With difrrant Ideas and beliefs. Why is it we turn to "A" book to explain some thing we can not. I See it as just that A book with stories not unlike greek mythos. Greek mythos was a lot more intertaining.

As far as man being in violation of time traveling. I don't think so. Man has free will. Man created in the Image of G-d. (would that mean we are clones) Man had eaten from the fruit of knowledge. Do you not think G-D is aware of what we are capable of and what we will do. Maybe we are stuck in a closed loop because of it.

If you could go all the way back to that time with clone technology and say hey I am the alpha and the omega. Your creator and father. Do as I say and obey my laws and you can stay in this garden. But oh don't eat them really good apples cause they are the fruit of knowledge. See you guys soon I need to head back to where I came from for a nap. Wouldn't that make you G-D. I know if I was created and seen some one pointing at the apple saying hey you can eat every thing here but that. see you guys soon. I am sure as hell going to see what it taste like or if the person was telling the truth about that whole knowledge thing. AND here you have it. Man is a curious creature. G-d knows this and welcomes us to sit with it along the way. be in life or death. oh hell I am talking to much. Oh and don't mind my spelling Like I have said before I am not an English grade.