"The future ain't what it used to be."

Mind-Body "Problem" And Relationship to Time!


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Mind-Body \"Problem\" And Relationship to Time!

OK Siegmund, here you go! Let's get to this thread! You ask, you got!

Let me just state my belief that the key to understanding the Mind-Body "problem" (and I use the quotes, because I do not see it as a problem any longer) is in our understanding of Time, and Tense. When us humans learn to no longer be bound by an incorrect view of Time, things are gonna change radically.

Now, here's a little evidence for why I believe it is logical to assume that unlocking the secrets of Time is the key to solving the Mind-Body problem:

Our species has risen to high levels of technology in our ability to manipulate Mass and Space, the other two dimensions of Massive SpaceTime. We have factories that turn one form of Mass into various other forms of Mass. We have various means of transportation that can help us transcend Space by moving us from A to B. We even have mastered mixing Mass and Space, for example, we can transform an "empty" plot of land (volume of Space) into a beautiful home to live in, simply by bringing in Mass and configuring it in certain prescribed ways.

Time is one dimension that we have not "mastered". Truly, Time is the new frontier. Mankind seems to be trapped within our 1-dimensional concept of Tense, and as we expand this concept to the full 3-dimensional aspect of Time, we will understand that Mind and Body are One.

So now what say Ye on Mind-Body, Siegmund?
Re: Mind-Body \"Problem\" And Relationship to Time!

Ok.. cool.

I'm on my way out to the guym, but I'll start with a quick outline of where I'm going to go with this, and I'll need some time to look up my sources.

Specifically with regards to time, two arguments come to mind. (I'll need to look up their originators, as I cannot claim the work as my own) They should provide some interesting material to discuss. Then I'll chime in with my take. This thread couls last a while.

The first argument I'm going to discuss is the "Poker Club" argument. I'm not sure if that's the official name, but it deals with a fictional poker club, and the poker club's "official" poker deck. Individual cards within the deck eventually have to be replaced at different times, and the argument focuses around "identity".

The second argument I will bring up is the "Young Soldier, Seasoned Veteran, Old General" argument (Again, I'm not sure of it's proper title, or source... I'll look them up later.). This argument examines some scholars claims that memory is fundamental to identity, and it's conclusions lead to a rather perplexing paradox- namely, A=B, B=C, BUT A /=/ C.

Both of these arguments deal with the "Self" and "Identity" and relate it to our concept of time.

I will also revisit an a priori proof that I, myself, constructed regarding an identity relationship between the Mind, Body, and "Soul". This proof will rely heavily on the peculiar case of Phineas Gage. I encourage you to do a google search on Phineas Gage to get some background on the topic.
Re: Mind-Body \"Problem\" And Relationship to Time!

I will also revisit an a priori proof that I, myself, constructed regarding an identity relationship between the Mind, Body, and "Soul". This proof will rely heavily on the peculiar case of Phineas Gage. I encourage you to do a google search on Phineas Gage to get some background on the topic.
Cool! Yes, I know the story of Phineas Gage. This ought to be a good proof.

I've always felt that the whole "observer vs. observed" dichotomy is directly related to the Mind-Body problem, to the point where I think the Mind and Body create a closed-loop system. This is one of many factors that drove me to study closed-loop control systems.

Re: Mind-Body \"Problem\" And Relationship to Time!

Hey Rainman,

Just thought I'd put my two cents in here. I'm reminded of a program that featured some guru or other that mentioned an important point about mind/body relationships. What he stated was that the same receptors in the brain are prevalent throughout the body--but in a much less sophisticated way. The receptors in the stomach, for example, are much more primitive than in the brain. The brain produces much more extraneous information and a much more complete picture of what is being observed. However, his analogy made a distinct conclusion. Chances are, the information coming from the stomach is bare bones compared to the sophisticated information flooding us from the brain. This information that floods our senses is likely to overload our thinking process and result in rash or incorrect decisions. His prognosis: In the end, you are probably more likely to be correct in your interpretation if you listen more closely to the receptors in the stomach. Translation: trust in your gut feelings!

Seriously though, what this also means is that the "mind" is not confined to the brain. In reality, our whole body is a "brain". Like a holograph, every part of our body is able to reproduce the whole and every part of our body can also reproduce the "brain", or the memories contained in the brain.

I am, unfortunately, a first-hand witness to a Phineas Gage experience. It was not as a result of an accident but from an illness called hypoglycemia. It is a pancreatic illness that produces wild fluctuations of the blood sugar level. Untreated, it can cause brain damage. Until just 15 years ago, the illness was basically unknown. It caused massive memory loss. Overnight, literally 15 years of life was lost. We all know that simply trying to remember a single thing can be really frustrating. Trying to remember 15 years is a catastrophe. The brain supplies memories if it cannot "remember". It was not the loss of memory that changed the person. It was the supplied memories. The "person" was still intact. However, the restraint or freedom that determines our behavior depends entirely on the chain of memory. Our experience is tied up in those memories. If our "experience" has determined specific responses in the past, without that experience to draw upon, the desired effect that our responses attempt to produce, is still accomplished but only to that person--everyone else sees it as bizarre. Only someone very close can even see the attempt and extrapolate through the maze to understand what was being attempted. The person hasn't changed, yet to everyone else they are not even the same person. The end result is a total alienation of everyone connected to this person. That person doesn't even have a clue as to why. Several different pathologies are often attributed to the affected person--from paranoid schizophrenic to hebrephrenic to manic-depressive and everything in between. I don't think the case of Phineas Gage has any proof whatsoever as to the question of whether the mind is simply the sum of electrical connections. Some memories can redevelop new lines but such a massive memory loss is impossible to reconstruct--at least in any coherent pattern that allows us to "return".
Re: Mind-Body \"Problem\" And Relationship to Time!

Here is the final problem in which you cannot deny :

Time does not exist.

It is an invention of man, the concept of time a creation of our mind. The universe does not know Time and it is undeniably obvious that the universe only 'travels forward in Time'... a series of moments that can never be reproduced because that exact instant is gone once it passes, evaporating into nothingness.

To even consider that Time does exist, you will have to plausibly hypothesize, (because that's all you can do about this subject), "if" and "where" the universe of the past exists, for example, and the form in which it exists, before we can rationally talk about traveling "to" it.

The moment I just spent typing this post has now gone and past. This particular moment may be duplicated if I tried, but will it be the same exact moment I just passed? Did this moment, and all the atoms and matter that surrounded my environment, go somewhere and be suspended in "Time"?

It becomes clear to me that it would indeed have to be in a state of suspension for anyone to be able to travel back to "it" (that moment in time). If not, that moment in itself is going through time and then that moment is now passed there as well. A huge problem now arises : Would you be suspended in time for 'traveling' to it or would your presence make time suddenly start working again?

There is one more possibility in which I am hesitant to mention, but for the purposes of thoroughness, I will casually mention. All moments in your life are being replicated every "second" such as an echo, never-ending. A weak but analogous situation would be a room with 400 television sets, each playing the same movie 1 second apart from each other. If you wanted to, your eyes could go from one television to the next, and the next, in 1 second intervals, and be "suspended" in the same moment until you exhausted all 400 television sets. For purposes of this argument, you would obviously have to mention that the universe is not confined to a definite number of "television sets", but an infinite one. Otherwise, we would have but a short time after a moment has passed to "travel back to it".

Do you see the non-senical situations we must try to explain to make Time exist?

If you respond to this post, please don't quote out of context or be subject to any other logical fallacy,

KnowThyself as of 11:44 AM, Monday, April 26, 2004 <----- That time doesn't really exist now does it? How in the world would you know how to control your time travel? I ask this assuming you already rationally theorized the existence of Time.
Re: Mind-Body \"Problem\" And Relationship to Time!

True, all past moments were experienced as the present. All future moments are experienced as the present.

They are all the present, with future and past being relative concepts from this present.

Why do we find the present so mundane and prefer to run away to visions of the future or memories of the past?