"The future ain't what it used to be."

you cant go into the past without changing it !!!!



Many people make the mistake of thinking that they can travel into the past without changing it, merely because they are careful not to change anything "important"--an extremely anthropocentric notion which believes that not changing recorded human history is the same thing as not changing the past. To quote from Multiverser, "The character who makes every effort not to change the past can only prevent himself from making severe changes. His very presence displaces molecules about him, alters total mass and gravitic forces. His movement creates kinetic ripples throughout the universe. He sweats, and leaves moisture, oils, and salts in the past which he robbed from the future; he drinks or eats, and removes moisture and matter from the past to return to the future. He is seen, and becomes part of the memories of those who saw him; some may change their own actions based on the memory of the one they saw. As soon as a character materially or visibly enters the past, he has altered the future."
Exactly..well put.

I've stated the same thing before myself. It's just a case of 'lazy' science fiction not following through with the theory to the point where the full implications become apparent..

Time travelling would be an undertaking that has ramifications on a universal scale. To think of it in local terms only, is like throwing a pebble into a puddle and expecting there to be no ripples..
That isn't as simplistic as it sounds.

The most simple way for the Universe to avoid the possiblity of paradoxes is to simply prevent the possibilty of travelling into the past altogether. This may well be the most probable theory that we have. It is quite possible that there is a physical law that prohibits matter from travelling back through time.

But we have no evidence one way or the other,so I prefer the notion that matter can be transported back through time..(It's just the sci fi fan in me).

So that means that in theory I have to deal with the problem of paradoxes. Firstly, I find it hard to believe that a bumbling human time traveller has the inherent ability to destroy the time space continuum. If there was a property of the universe that allowed a human to travel back through time, surely the process wouldn't result in the destruction of the universe..

The leading theory that deals with paradoxes is that an incursion creates a parallel reality from that point. This may be a property of a multi dimensional universe, but it is obviously wild speculation and a bit of a neat escape clause. I prefer it to the prospect of getting trapped in a causality loop/bubble outside of the time space continuum though. If it were so, imagine the amount of them that the universe would end up with. It seems a very complicated way of dealing with the problem and when is nature/the universe more complicated than it needs to be to get the job done?

I've grown quite keen on the theory of a single circular reality, where time travel is an integral part of the overall mechanism. I quite like the way that it would make the sequence of cause and effect interchangable (ie, from the perspective of the time traveller there is cause and then effect, but from everyone else's there is effect and then cause). This illustrates that time and the universe are one entity that appears differently depending on your perspective.(Actually, the time traveller would unknowingly experience the effect first too, then he/she would experience the cause-time travel and his or her actions, and then the effect again.)

The theory poses the question of a time traveller revealing events in somebody's future and that person then being able to second guess their fate. But as this theory postulates that all actions and effects carried out by a time traveller have already occurred in their past, the attempt of someone trying to avoid their predetermined fate would actually serve to fulfill it. Indeed, their foreknowledge may be the actual trigger that leads to their unavoidable fate. In this way, you would not perceive that your actions are predetermined unless you were told so by someone that has seen the future. In other words, you would still have free will, unless someone alters your linear perspective.

But no matter what theory is nearest the 'truth'(were we able to perceive it), it cannot be possible that you can alter the timeline that you are native to..It could only undermine the fabric of the universe.
a bit simple !

The way you discibe it , means that the universe/time leave not way to expension or contraction , it is a 2 dimensional approche leaving to believe that the universe is as rigide as a bar of steel .
Time can only be altered in drastic ways only by influencing KEY moment or action , the resulting actions will definitly change the time line for THAT part of space/time and only in that particuliar sector .
Since the futur is not in ciment , everything that CAN happen , DO happen , the contribution of a Time traveller will become a normal force of interraction for THAT period of space/time .
Re:a bit simple !

You're not looking at the overall picture, I'm afraid.

There are 2 basic premises at work. Either..

A. Time travel into the past is an integral part of the time traveller's native universe, hence whatever effect their 'incursion' has is already part of history and so they are simply fulfilling 'fate' if you like.
It doesn't matter what they do in the past because the effects have already occurred and shaped history.

Or..B. it isn't. In this case, their 'incursion' is not part of their native reality's past and is therefore unavoidably a paradox.

They either automatically create a paradox as soon as they arrive or they don't.
This is essential to understand, as the actual act of time travelling itself is what does or doesn't create a paradox. Whatever may occur after the point of arrival is irrelevent.
They couldn't tell from their perspective, but they're either in the reality they left, carrying out their 'fate' or their arrival has created a paradox which has maybe created a parallel reality from that point. In this case, their actions would be integral to this new timeline which is separate to their 'original' reality.

They obviously can't create a paradox at the same time as not creating one. As a matter of fact, whichever would be the case would be the rule for the universe. If one theory is actually true, it automatically negates the other in all cases.

It's almost as if you're saying that the universe can make the decision to turn 'a blind eye' to some alterations to it's history but not to others. Maybe you can explain how 'it' can differentiate between one and the other??? Is it sentient??
Re:a bit simple !

What do you mean by a "KEY" moment?

For instance, which is the "KEY" moment in nuclear history? ---

The first test at Alamagordo?
The day Robert Oppenheimer solved the implosion problem?
Perhaps the day Oppenheimer was born?
Maybe the day Einstein was born?
The day Einstein urged Roosevelt to develop the weapon?
The day Roosevelt decided to accept?
The day General Relativity was published?
The day plutonium was refined?
The day Marie Currie left the "strange" element in the drawer that exposed the film plate?
The day Einstein's parents met?
The instant Einstein's Dad thought Einstein's Mother was attractive, or perhaps the vice versa?

Couldn't this list be expanded to become almost infinite in nature itself?

You get my point.
the key

i see that sarcasm goes well in here !

i the particuiar "scenario" you discribe , it will not be the day he was born or the day hes father lay eyes on his mother , but the day that someone decide to see it as a weapon .
All of those masters are NOT the true creaters of the nuclear weapon , only the mens who decide the possibility of using it as a weapon !

thats one very important factor of time travel :going into history NOT AS HISTORY WAS WRITTEN BUT HOW IT ACTUALLY HAPPEN
remember those famous word : History is written by the victorious...... The way they want it !

Now as for the KEY MOMENT : Since or books are so full of gasp , misprint , lies , half lies etc etc , it is almost impossible to target the true moment where a decision or action was taken .

Now by the way , i see that you are one of those big fan of the paradox theory : DID YOU SEE ONE LATELY?? HOW WILL YOU RECONIZE A PARADOX ? DOES A PARADOX SMELL OR TASTE SOMETHING??? SO HOW DO YOU KNOW A PARADOX : 1) exist 2) do something 3) an action or inaction ,can creat a paradox etc etc ....?????????????????????????????????

Welcome to the nobody knows dick about time /space club , we are not alone , just 6 Billions humans !
I do not agree

Bien au contraire mon chere ami ,

It is because i look the big picture , that i think that way .

Like i said to you friend LEE :
DID YOU SEE ONE LATELY?? HOW WILL YOU RECONIZE A PARADOX ? DOES A PARADOX SMELL OR TASTE SOMETHING??? SO HOW DO YOU KNOW A PARADOX : 1) exist 2) do something 3) an action or inaction ,can creat a paradox etc etc ....??????
Or even that what you might mistake as a paradox , is only another manisfestation of something that yet we dont understand ?

There is sssssssooooooooo many things that we dont know ( maybe because of our small relative mind) , that each time we have to call it something :::::

like in the old days : she does something weird :shes a witch ! burn her ! , now we are more evolve : its a paradox ! or its impossible !

Now you talk about fate , nice word... what is fate : a human conception , nothing else !

Am gonna give you something down to earth to think about weird thing or normally impossible , that happen every day under our nose :

YOu know that all living organism are carbon base ? right ? that basically , all living creature are build at sub atomic level etc etc , the same way?
So if we have almost the same "pool" , how come a man live apx 70 years , a cat 15 , a turtoise 170 etc etc .....dont even try...

Thats why the universe must be multi-densitional , and maybe multi-dimentional , to let all possibility (or else)happen.....

HO ! by the way , do you believe in the BIG BANG theory?? .......
Question : in what universe does this big bang happen ? or do you think that there was nothing, absolutly nothing , then out from nowhere , a big bang , then PAF! a universe ?!


Re:the key

That wasn't sarcasm, he was trying to get you to see the massive hole in your 'theory'.

You are basically saying that you can alter events in your own universe's past, as long as the changes aren't perceived by humankind.
This suggests that the universe is constructed to fit in with, or revolve around human perception. The very basis of time travel is the ability to operate outside and beyond the human perspective of the universe, ie linear time, so your theory is fundamentally at odds with itself.

Apart from that, you may as well insist the Earth is at the centre of the universe, with the stars etc in orbit around us. I don't mean to be offensive, but your theory is essentially just as much an example of misguided human arrogance(and ignorance).

People like Lee have obviously spent a great deal of time theorising temporal mechanics and are able to glimpse the possibilities on a universal scale rather than just a human one. You don't appear to have done the same.

Re:I do not agree

Of cause we don't really know, that's why we're all THEORISING'.

Why do different animals have different lifespans? Because they have different metabolic rates that are usually associated with their size. They must perceive the passage of 'time' relative to their own metabolic rate I guess, although I doubt that they are consciously aware of the concept.

What caused 'The BIG BANG'?? That is open to as much conjecture as 'Is there a god?' and 'what happens when I die?' and for that matter 'Is time travel possible?' Maybe the universe will stop expanding when the most fundamental forces at work reach a maximum 'stretching point' and the whole lot will begin to contract, eventually resulting in a 'Big Crunch' which provides the impetus for 'The Big Bang'. As the universe is 'timeless' this would make the whole process circular. Maybe that is bullshit, we'll probarbly never know.

You are quite right that we obviously and probarbly never will understand the nature of the universe, but some theories hold up better under logical analysis than others, that's all.

The basic theory that I understand you were making, was the 'if a tree falls in a forest but nobody is there to witness it, does it really fall? question.

Are you really theorising that, you could alter the past of your native universe, as long as you coudn't perceive the changes, ie disturbing air molecules etc?

Firstly you have a problem with chaos. How can you possible predict the 'knock on effect' that you would have set in motion. An alteration is an alteration. The scale of thje alteration is irrelevent.

I THEORISE the universe to be a unimaginably vast mechanism. From a human perspective, the universe that we know is the result of countless interactions from the most basic sub atomic particles up, up to this point. Everything in this universe is a component (a cog if you like). Whether you are talking about a star or a human being or a sub atomic particle is irrelevent. Each is a critical component of the universe with a role to play and they are equally essential to the whole 'mechanism'. It's like Gaia on a universal scale. In these terms, travelling into the past and preventing the birth of a dictator, or simply disturbing the interaction of air molecules both have the same implications. The act is either the setting in motion of a predetermined cause and effect (I called this 'fate' as it is easier to picture and doesn't take as long to type in) or not. If it isn't then simply 'arriving' is not predetermined and is thus an alteration to the flow of history. This is what we call a paradox.

I was simply trying to say, that if your act of time travelling is part of your native reality's past, then you are fulfilling history by being there aren't you? What ever you do has already happened in your history. You are either supposed to be there, or you aren't, if you aren't then you are into the theoretical territory of a paradox - whatever that may entail..As I said, it is the act of an incursion itself that will set up the parameters. Did you appear in your NATIVE past or not??

By travelling through time, you are taking a shortcut through the fabric of the time/space continuum. Thus the endeavor is an undertaking on a universal scale, not just a human one..
Re:the key

There was no sarcasm in my question. It was an honest inquiry and I'm sorry you interpreted it otherwise.

Perhaps you should have checked the other messages below where I complimented you on your ideas before you decide to get defensive about it.

I understand that English is not your first language. No problem. But it can lead one to mis-read the semantics involved. Regardless, there is never any need to get hostile about it.

Your KEY MOMENT issue STILL evades me however. I stick by the original question which I do not believe you have answered. Your statement that the KEY MOMENT is when someone decided to use it as a weapon is, well, nothing more than a choice made by you. There are still an enormous number of "Key Moments" in the developement of Nuclear weapons that led to their reality. It's a long series of events, any one of which could be called "KEY".
Re:Re:the key

Thank you for your most gracious reinforcement.

This is a facinating subject is it not?
Re:Re:you cant go into the past without changing it !!!!

Yeah, we do pretty much see it the same way. We just say it a bit differently.

What you say here is at the core of my original posting on the MB where I asked the question: "Can anyone describe a Time Travel scenario that does NOT lead to the possibility of a paradox"?

You've brought me full circle on this.
Give me a break , am 7years old !

Sure experience is a good thing , but when you are dealing with uncharted place ( like time and space) any new point of view can help !
a mis read

Most probely it was a mis read from my part , since i didnt see your reply in my former message .

For your answer : We dont know WHERE is the key moment , since we dont correctly keep records of our history , its almost impossible to know how , where , or even under what form , the key moment will present himself .
EVERY action , decision etc etc have a key moment , it can be the moment you decide to do it , the moment someone talk to you of something
, you hurt your toe nail on the bed ... etc etc
Basicaly , a key moment , is a catalist witch transform an inaction to an action , a dream to a reality etc etc .
HE he he ! now the key , is to found the key !
Re:Give me a break , am 7years old !

I didn't mean to come on so strong, but you must agree that every theory has at least one hole in it, some being bigger than others.

I don't disagree for a second that this is obviously uncharted territory, hence we don't really know, but that's what theories are for, yes? The most seemingly illogical theories may in time be proved right, since we can't state them totally possible or impossible even if they may seem that way, but we have to take a reasonably logical standpoint to begin with, even if it is disproved later. It may lead to more bizarre theories, but I really think that logical thinking is the best starting point, don't you?

By the way, I'm assuming that I misunderstand your subject header. Surely you're not 7 years old are you???
Re:Re:Re:you cant go into the past without changing it !!!!

I agree.

My theorising is simply based on my inquiring mind, not any real scientific qualification in this area. It's the temporal mechanics that fascinate me, I really like the way that it requires and promotes logical lateral thinking, rather than say, needing a Phd in quantum physics. I actually find it all rather good mental exercise..

A theory that I'm currently quite hooked on deals with the point at which a paradoxical situation may occur(you've probarbly read it and I don't claim to have originated it, but it seems to bring things into focus)..
..It proposes that the only point at which a time traveller could cause a paradox would be through the actual act of incursion into the past itself. It may sound astonishingly simple, but it depends on whether we exist in a single predetermined universe/reality or not. If we do, then the incursion has been preordained thus is already a part of the time traveller's past. This negates the possibility of a paradox. If his/her arrival isn't paradoxical, everything they do is already an integral part of the universe/history etc.

If the incursion isn't part of their reality's past, then safely arriving in the past is paradoxical. Whether they are simply killed enroute and never arrive, or appear in a parallel reality, they do not incur into their own reality - it is unalterable.

But I am extremely sceptical about any theory that proposes that you can travel to your native reality's past and then create a paradox by interfering with 'Key events'. It stands to reason, that if your appearance does not create a paradox, then you are 'supposed'(predetermined) to be there. Thus the effects of your presence are already in place.

I suppose that the first 'predermined realty' theory doesn't contain the possibilty of paradoxes. It is inherently anti paradoxical. If it is possible for living conscious matter to travel back in time, it is either an inherently paradoxical act or a predetermined act that allows absolutely no possibilty of paradox. I believe it must be one or the other exclusively. The incursion would determine the parameters, would determine the nature of the time/space continuum, all consequent actions would then fall within those parameters - no (further) paradox. Not that anyone other than..'the universe'..or 'god'..or whatever external force could actually observe it. But there you go..

I have no proof of this though....
Re:a mis read

Ah yes! It appears we ARE in agreement after all.

If you really are 7 years old, you're a very precocious young man. (That's a compliment meaning "wise beyond your years" or mature for your age.)
2nd Response

well thank you , i hope entering the MENSA next year if my parents let me (but i ear that they dont take people under 10,rumors??)
Since our "last talk" , i have started to learn about QUANTUM physics , i found it interresting , but a little simplistic ( looks like another way to explain in a nice way what we dont know)

last night i started to collect most of all the current "thinking fashions" about time , briefly , what i see is the people view about time/space are directly connected to the fashion of the time (movies etc etc) ex :

around 1950 :Mars is full with green mans (he he he), the cold war goes on , so we state that everything not terran is bad or not so friendly .

around 1980 : E.T (yawn!)goes on , and the new fashion goes on ! we love aliens and they love us ! , the universe is only a big pool of love ( yickes!)

Now we get near of the big 2000 : wow ! here come the doomsday , chaos , invasion , E.L.E etc etc theories

Youll see : after the millenium : everything will be back to "peachy" , since our society will be releive (Y2K ,religious beleive etc etc will be over) , the science views of time /space will follow that same current

IT JUST MAKE ME SICK ! science is science, fact are fact ! so how come we always follow a fashionly point of view and discard everything that not follow that tendency ?!?!?!

Proof : try to get at Enstein time and try to talk about quantum physic or anything currently in fashion : ill give you about 30 minutes before standing in a nice warm ,padded room next to the guy who thinks hes Napoleon !

We have to explore , out of the trails currently laid , to get another point of view (not regurgitating what other try to fill our brains with )

and i really hope that you wont stop exanging point of views with me , just because am just a kid .