Time-travel Paradoxes!

DaViper

Very interesting argument but I have a couple of questions. You described the word paradox as, “…it refers to the "idea" of the existence of a problem that has no solution.” Actually, the #1 definition I read in the American Heritage Dictionary is “…a seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true”,

Also, what exactly is your definition of “time travel”? I was taught that time travel is strictly a local observation that can only be measured by the experience of an individual or single particle. Under that definition, the “twin paradox” (time dilation due to acceleration or gravity) and even sleeping can be considered time travel. You appear to be arguing against dematerialization and/or spacelike trips under the limits of special relativity in a single worldline.

I do agree that the “grandfather paradox” is not possible simply because the classic problem is presented as an observer’s issue magnified to a universal issue. Your statements about observation are correct when you isolate the experiences to a single worldline. However, the reason there are no paradoxes is because the universe doesn’t care how we react to its handy-work. In a Universe made up of infinite worldliness (superuniverse), everything is possible and has a 100% probability, therefore…no paradoxes.

“You believe in the "Great Flood" perhaps. Gee, where did all the water come from?”

I believe the explanation for the “great flood” stories originate with the changes that occurred near the Mediterranean at the end of the last ice age. Even on this worldline, there is a great deal of evidence to support the fact that sea levels did change radically in isolated areas worldwide. I also heard someplace that if the ice mass on Antarctica melted today, sea level worldwide would rise about 100 feet. I’m not exactly sure that’s true but still… Mt. Everest might be a bit of a stretch.

I do however agree with you that there are no physical paradoxes but for the opposite reasoning.

Peace to you also.

Also flooding could easily occur with monsoon rains lasting anywhere past 5 days in a region of low ground. And don't forget in those days, "the world" was defined as that small region only. These people had never been to Switzerland! (Hi Time, missed you you ole rattle snake.)

Anyone ever heard of "Pangia"

it referrs to when the earth, or "Gia" was once pne singl large body of land.

when I find more info on this latter, I will edit this post, and include the links. meanwile if anyone else wishes to make any additional comments about pangia, and how the water vovered the remaining 3/4 of the land mass around the geosphere, please by all means, share with us what you have to offer.

What do you suppose would happen during the next "Great Flood" now that the former Pangia is broken into the current continetal land structures of today's earth?

~just a thought~

p)'i4q4

That's right Time, I also heard that origionally the continent of Africa was connected to America by a connecting land mass. I believe that's part of the Atlantis theory, that it was the connecting land. I know there are some incredible things underwater off of Biminy. (can't spell it or find it) There are huge greek collums with huge hands at the top holding some sort of ball. Also what looks like roads made of hand cut flat stones that would break a fork lift. What I would'nt give to time travel to before that sunk and see it it all it's glory. It's must have been beautiful beyond comprehension.

I had a flashback once, not too long ago, just a few seconds ago in fact. It had to be a flashback. I saw a former Governor of Texas, Bush I believe, saying "I wish I were a dictator but this is not a dictatorship!" Also he mentioned something to the effect of "You are aware of the fact that any resession that may come along next year or so, is Bill's fault, really." FWEEEEET! Hey pal, can I intrest you in a little tax cut? Very popular in this election year you know. (Hey babe you wanna count some ballots? Your dimples are soooo cute." "Chad, I think I might be pregnant.") If I'm laid off do I still get my multimillion dollar tax cut, huh Gorge? Huh Huh? George? GEORGE!!??........".just wait your turn sir, the President Elect is busy playing with his yo-yo right now." This only thing missing out of national politics righ now is a Ryder rental truck full of whoopie cushions.

Yes, speaking of The Flood. The real flood can't hold a candle to the flood of bull**** that is commin down the pike these days. Are they TRYING to whizz us off, or do they deserve an Oscar for acting as thought they were. There are other possible explainations. Like Terminal Stupidity. Or the desire for population reduction (you). Or how about creepy aliens, time traveling spooks, or maybe even that half spoiled turkey sandwich you had for lunch.

Of coarse the screamingly hysterical part of it is that they act like we ain't supposed to notice. Right. "Waiter, check please!"

It's ok, we can wait while you extract that wild hair from your butt.

DaViper,

Just because you cannot figuere out where the water came from for the Great Flood

is not a good enough reason to conclude that it never took place.

In the ancient lore and legend of every culture you will find a story of a disasterous flood. These accounts vary but in distant parts of the world these stories agree on one point. far back in history there was a catacylmsmic flood which wiped out all but a handful of people.

From the indians of north and south america to the Islanders of the Pacific and from the chinese to atleast 40 aborigional races we find the elements of a great flood described.

Geologists of today all over the Earth find a layer of sediment which gives evidence of a worldwide flood.

There are several different theories of where the water might have come from.

Here is the one I have heard:

The Earth had quite a different climate before and after the flood.

for in Geneisis 2:5-6 it states that the lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth...but there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

They argued that Genesis 1:6 described God seperating the waters on the earth from the waters above the Earth. which could describe a canopy of water vapor.Our Earth could have been in effect a giant canopy enclosed garden watered by gentle mists which came out of the ground from the reservoirs of water below the surface.

If the Earth before the flood had been surrounded by a canopy of water vapor above the Troposphere it would have compressed the air beneath and raised the average atmospheric pressure, just how much would depend on how much water the canopy contained.

This increased pressure could have resulted in a greater oxidation rate, a much more efficient metabolism and stronger, healthier people.

The sheilding of water vapor canopy could have eliminated almost all genetic mutation from the harmful solar radiation.

there would be benefits of living under increased atmospheric pressure. During the aquanaut program it was discovered a cut on a aquanauts hand healed completely in 24 hours while submerged in a diving bell.

back then the current land mass was joined together in a hugh continent.

The Earth before the flood was a single land mass riding on a blanket of superheated steam and with an overhead curtain of water vapor protecting it from harmful solar rays.

After the flod the vapor canopy was gone the Earths climate was changed.

Atmospheric pressure dropped to what it is today.

without the water vapor canopy the Earth received more radiation from the sun and genetic mutations occured. mans lifespan was greatly reduced. and they obviosly didnot live as long after the flood.

the other theory that goes with it sometimes is "the fountains of the deep" were also let lose.Gen 7:11 Which combined with the collapse of the water vapor canopy. produced a great amount of water.the ripping apart of the crust would have triggered tsunamis of unparalleled magnitude, sweeping the Earth with walls of water from the existing oceans.

The initial rupture of the earths crust would have spewed a tremendous jet of super heated steam high above the earths ionosphere. the vapor blanket resting on the air above the Earth would have been overwhelmed by the intensity and heat of this supersonic blast and would have collapsed as sheets of worldwide rain.

The jet of water which gushed high above the earths atmosphere would have encountered frigid temperatures converting the water almost instantly to ice crystals.

When the water vapor canopy which covered the Earth up to that point collapsed in rain, ending the green house effect, the temperatures on earth would have been reduced to much the same as they are today. immediately after the flood, the ice crystals formed high above the earths stratosphere would have fallen, dumping immense quantities of ice on the earths polar regions and northern latiitudes. This would explain an enigma which has long perplexed the discovery of animals which had been quick frozen in siberia and alaska some still with undigested food in their stomaches and mouths.

there had to be an abrupt and extremely sudden change in temperature, from near tropical to extreme cold within a matter of minutes.

I kept this in my mind. and a couple of years ago i saw an article in the newspaper where scientists had found a couple miles long of watervapor in the upper atmosphere that was forming over a specific area and they didnt know what it was doing up there. If i find the article i will post it I did cut it out and save it.

nobody knows for sure where the water came from and can only theorize but there was plenty of evidence that it took place. I have read several scientific theories of the water vapor canopy. I could go on and on but i just dont have time. I have several books that mention it. I just pulled a few things out of the books for you to think on.This is just one of several theories I have heard.

sincerely,

pamela

Wow, what can be added to that! I do recall reading that "radiolaria", a fossilized form of tiny sea life has been found in layers of dirt at high elevations in the darndest places around the earth. I know nothing of bibical things but when you find petrofied itty bitty fishies in mountain ranges, something incredible happened involving a whole lot of water.

Thanks for that Pamela.

Has anyone read "An Ascension Handbook," channeled material from Serapis, by Tony Stubbs ? Lots of interesting ideas in there.

warren

Well ,I found the article but unfortunately I didnot cut out the date with it.

It was in the Repository Newspaper . the author is Randolph E. Schmid

associate press writer. here it is word for word:

VAPOR FLOWS FOUND IN THE ATMOSPHERE

___________________________________

WASHINGTON- Massive rivers of vapor, some carrying as much water as the Amazon, have been discovered in the lower atmosphere.

Reginald E. Newell, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said thursday he was surprised to find the flows while analyzing satellite data.

His findings are reported in Geophysical Research Letters, published by the American Geophysical Union.

A half-dozen vapor rivers carry water from the equator toward the poles in relatively narrow streams, Newell explained in a telephone interview.

"I expected to see things following air masses, which usually have much larger horizontal widths. The fact that it's concentrated was a surprise to us. " said Newell. The flows "look like a river," he said.

The newly discovered rivers do follow these general principles, but move the moisture in narrow streams rather than having it spread out over a large air mass.

They seem to generally trend toward the poles, Newell explained, though he has found a couple of cases in which the stream encounters a typhoon,"gets entangled in itself and goes back equatorwards."

The rivers also display waves in their movement, he said, though why this should occur is not clear.

The researchers calculated the length of some of these rivers of vapor at as much as 4,800 miles with a width of 420 to 480 miles.

What does this mean to the world's weather and climate? Newell and his associates are trying to figure that out.

"We haven't solved the relation between these rivers and fronts, highs and lows and the rest of the synoptic (weather) pattern," Newell said.

Morkie!

Hair extracted. I'm much better now. Thank you.

Hear no evil. see no evil, speak no evil. WHEN will I EVER learn?

WE do digress from time travel don't we. The earth is going to fall over any minute now........scratch that.........any TIME now.

My theory on Earth Changes was dismissed because it "rested on shakey ground". I too will wait for a time.

Shadow, Don't feel bad, I live on shakey ground myself. As they used to say, you threw a hissy fit. HAHA We take turns on this board. Your always interesting with or without hairs; and your opinion in always important wether provable or not. Heck, I never shut up and I can't prove anything myself.

Well as far as I can tell, it seems that only two of us here are willing to answer TT_0's questions. (Three - Shadow answered at least one question.) What's wrong? Are you afraid of being judged in some way? Most of the people who post here on this forum seem to enjoy playing around (and sometimes bickering and putting each other down). So what is the problem? It seems as though when you find out someone is observing you and says so, you clam up. Yes I know that implies that you believe his claims or you don't think he is worth responding to. Yet most of you will take the time to bicker. You could just tell him that you don't want to answer any of his questions. You can't even do that instead you will ignore those questions and write a lengthy reply to someone else just to get your point of view across. Well that is what TT_0 is asking for. Why do you find so hard to answer him? It implies that you believe him more then your willing to admit. And you don't like the idea of being classified by an observer from a future time. I think he is right, on the whole, "sheep" - bickering sheep. Ok, you can blast me by being honest in answering TT_0 questions. (That is the only basting that is acceptable.)

Hi djayr42!

Actually there was another man who answered all of the questions and sent them to me to forward to timetravler_0 in private.

which I did.

wether you beleived he was real or not,

I think it was only common curtesy to answer the questions after he answered ours. and that had to take a lot of his time to answer all of our questions and debating on how much he wanted to share. when every word you say can have consequences.

Its no big deal ,he was just curious about how we feel about things as we are about him.

Maybe people are just too paranoid.

It is kind of interesting though...is this how we would treat a person from another world if we ever met one?

Well anyway..hope everyone has a great Christmas!!!!!!

sincerely,

Pamela

TT-O

I'm surprised that they haven't cought you yet. I'd give dollars-to-donuts that the US military is into time travel already....since the mid sixties I'd guess. Not that its any of my business, nor do I want it to be. Maybe they don't care. Maybe there is already intertime treaties of noninterference.

If it doesn't make it less convient for the rich to ripp-off the masses it could well remain a non-issue.

Timetravel_0:

I think we're probably closer than you think here. I'll certainly buy your explanation of time travel as purely relative to the observer. I'm also not sure we're that far apart on the reason there are no paradoxes. (Your Dictionary definition is of course the correct one, I was merely making a simplification of it for my own purposes.)

As to the possibility of multiple universes, well, it gets used a lot to try to explain things that can't be explained but to me it's a cop out due to lack of evidence and the very fact that it GETS used so much as a way to explain that which is otherwise currently un-explainable. I need more evidence. The existence of multiple universes leads me to believe that if there is more than one of them, there must therefore be an infinite number of them. If there are an infinite number of them, then everything that can happen, has already. I dislike this theory for two reasons. 1. It destroys the necessity for free will thereby making all descisions made by choice inherently moot. 2. It goes against "Occam's Razor". The principle that the simplest explaination is probably the best one. I really don't see the Universe needing to be so complicated as to require infinite universes just to solve the concept of paradoxes.

Peace.

I thought it interesting that my little "Flood" analogy sparked such conversation.

By all means many cultures refer to "Great Floods" in their history. And Local phenomenea ARE the reason these persist in mythology.

Pamela, you've been reading the propaganda of the "Young Earth Creationists" I see. Their web sites are all over the place. Unfortunately, these theories they propound are not only NOT POSSIBLE, but have long since proven to be so.

Unfortunately many of these, like the so-called "Dr." Kent Hovind have fabricated their own "degrees" in higher education. Hovind for instance, started a "University" in his living room, awarded himself a "Doctorate" in Theology, and uses this to tout his self professed "expertise" in geological and biologocal matters.

The "Vapor Cloud" myth is a fairly old one trotted out to answer the "Where did the water come from?" question. But YOUR explainations are right out of the Creationists handbook 101. And equally mythological as they are without foundation or acceptance by the Scientific Community at large.

Think about it. If it never rained before the flood, what did plants live on? As to the Vapor Cloud it self, it's already been calculated that to produce the water necessary for world wide full deluge, the cloud would be so thick as to block out the sun entirely. Meaning it MUST have been dark always before the so called "Great Flood". Preposterous. Every Creationists argument on this issue is totally debunk-able. Not just because it isn't so, but because it can be PROVEN to be not so.

May I suggest you do some browsing around the various Talk Origins websites where the real scientists hang out and you'll begin to see how truly silly some of these Literal Scripture interpretations really are.

Not that I'm arguing against (or for) the existence of God, just that if you want to view the Bible as an informative and inspirational document, may I suggest that you at least study the differences where metaphor is used instead of an intended depiction of reality.

Genesis has TWO depictions or accounts of Creation. The Creationsts won't tell you about the second one because it is contradictory to THEIR view. And supports the concept of Evolution. It's called selective intepretation. And they engage in it all the time.

Or as the old song goes,

"Some Things That You Libel,

To Read In The Bible,

It Ain't necessarily So."

Good luck, and

Peace.

DaViper,

I thought I already answered the questions you posed on this particular theory to me in my last posting. I apologize I didnt have more time to post more info on it. It was only one theory out of many that I have heard. I mentioned this one because of the article I read two years ago in the city newspaper.

The book the info came from was "A scientific approach to biblical mysteries."by Robert W. Faid.I have another book called "Beyond Star Wars."which I cannot locate at this moment. which is a scientifically based book discussing the many theories of ancient mysteries around the world. and it also mentions the water vapor canopy. both of them mention the rain falling for forty days and nights from the canopy and the rest of the water coming from the fountains of the earth being broken up.

I have never heard of the "young earth creationists." what is their web site? I would like to check out their theories.

One thing is certain though, DaViper, there was a flood for the evidence was left in the Earth. How it happened rests now in theories because noone knows for sure.

You know when it comes to Ancient Events most of the time all you ever have are theories because none of us were there at the time. and many things are not in existance at this time that were there in their time.Theories are formed and based on evidence found at the time and from piecing together writings or anything else found from the time period.or things found in the Earth.

someday we shall all know the truth. Maybe someday somebody will go back and "check it out" and see for themself. I am not afraid to study anything or research any theory. I piece it all together as I go keeping everything in mind. I see things from many different angles. and eventually the truth will be known.

Peace to you always.

-Pamela

(Robert W. Faid-a nuclear scientist and consultant to the nuclear power industry, has developed patented processes which have been used to protect nuclear power plants around the world against earthquakes and flooding.)

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 26 December 2000).]

Hey Pamela if you want to believe in mythology as opposed to science and fact it's OK with me. To each his/her own so to speak.

I prefer knowledge however over the fabricated ideas of those who adjust theory to suit ther particulat religous beliefs.

Sure there have been floods. There's probably one going on right now somewhere. But...

AY NO TIME was there ever a flood that covered the entire Earth. There isn't enough water for there to ever have been. And no hocus pocus "vapor cloud" that could ever contain the amount of water needed to produce a rainfall of that proportion has EVER covered the earth.

But if you choose to believe this, fine. All the belief in the world cannot make it so.

The whole comment was an analogy in the first place.

I thought we were discussing time travel paradoxes. That's the title of the board anyway.

Peace.

Sorry I have been out for a while. Does anyone no whether the forces exerted by a universal flooding could produce the force needed to seperate all the continents in in a period of a couple of months. Given the amount of water on the earth now if the land masses were but one land mass and there was one huge earth quake that cause all the land masses to spread at a constant velocity to their present location in a period of three months or so would the kenetic force mediated through the water cause universal flooding by generating huge waves of water covering the land. How fast would a land mass have to travel accross the earth for there in order to cause the ocean in the direction of travel flow up and over the entire continent of the united states from east coast to west coast? How hi would the wall of water be? Does the needed velocity match the biblical time period for the flood? If the continents were to have traveled at the nessecary velocity to cause the water to wave over from the pacific ocean to the atlantic ocean for period of time that Noah's flood was stated to have lasted in the bible could the continents have reached their present location from the pangea in that period of time at the calculated velocity. If not how far could the continents have traveled. How much heat would have been generated by the friction of the water over the continents surface if the water flowed over the earth. Would it have been enough to produce steem at the calculated pressure? If all the above proves true then is it possible find evidence in the soil for such events? If anyone is motivated enough to run a computer simulation and plug in all the variables in order to calculate the above hypothesis I would appreciate it. I donnot have enough computer knowlege to run the simulation. Whoever comes up with the answers to the questions above has the write to the discovery naturally so have at it.

God bless you all and Peace,

sincerely,

Edwin G. Schasteen

to rgrunt

a computer sim ain't going to predict ancient earth geologic changes any better than it can predict next years weather

go to the library, open a textbook on geology and all your answers will there, indexed and catagorized

alternatively there is a cool website on the subject, I believe it is http://www.tomato-wizzard.com(ic)