Time Travel Paradoxes - Original Reposted

[Darby]

shadow
unregistered posted 27 December 2000 19:35
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to rgrunt
a computer sim ain't going to predict ancient earth geologic changes any better than it can predict next years weather

go to the library, open a textbook on geology and all your answers will there, indexed and catagorized

alternatively there is a cool website on the subject, I believe it is www.tomato-wizzard.com
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Shadow
unregistered posted 27 December 2000 20:06
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Pamela
Nine out of ten theories are eventually proven false. Let the people who make them up defend them. The Earths history is unimaginably long and complex. It may indeed be harder to find something that has NOT happened over its 5 billion years.

There a million ways to be wrong and only one way to be right. Daviper will run circles around you because he's got this million to one rule on his side.

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pamela
Member posted 27 December 2000 21:41
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Shadow,
Then he will get VERY DIZZY! hehehehehe
I am not here to defend or prove anything. I simply mentioned one theory out of many I had heard.
I dont immediately disregard a theory because it may clash with any beleif system I may or may not have. he's just plain silly! heheheeh. but it was fun!
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pamela
Member posted 27 December 2000 21:52
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Shadow,
p.s. I cant get your tomato-wizard link to work! And I wanted to see it!
sincerely,
pamela
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DaViper
unregistered posted 28 December 2000 05:11
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The laws of physics have nothing to do with a belief system.
They are what they are whether one believes them or not. All the old belief that the world was flat didn't make it so.

All the belief that the earth was the center of the Solar System and Universe couldn't make it so.

And all the belief in the world that a "universal flood" EVER existed can't change the laws of physics that make such an event utterly impossible.

Where did all the water go when this "flood" was over? Evaporate into space? Sorry not possible under the laws of physics that are governed by the very gravity of the earth itself. Water which is heavier than air, evaporated into the vacume of space and left the earth's atmosphere behind? Sorry no dice. It just doesn't work like that as any meteorologist can tell you.

The story is based on local phenomenae at the time it originated. It probably looked to the inhabitants at the time that the "whole world" was flooded but the reality of physics is that it is not, never was, and can never be possible. (Barring collisions with several thousand Comets that is. Which would wipe out all life, change the entire structure of the mantle itself and cause evolution to start all over again.)

There is NO evidence this has ever happened in this manner.

The belief stems from the desire to insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible that the earth is but 6-8 thousand years old.

But it isn't just that meteorology, geology, palentology, astronomy, biology, physics, quantum mechanics or cosmology each show that this is impossible, it's that ALL these sciences agree thru related and intertwined studies that the aforementioned is simply not possible.

If one wants to toss aside ALL of these studies and the verifiable evidence they produce in favor of a mytology based on a single text that has NO proof, than I guess one is free to do so.

But an Ostrich is free to stick his head in the sand also.

Peace.

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pamela
Member posted 28 December 2000 06:08
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"They are what they are whether one believes them or not. All the old belief that the world was flat didn't make it so."
Isnt that amazing? but yet thousands of years before they came to the conclusion that the earth was flat it was already stated that it was indeed round!
Isaiah 40:22 "...the circle of the Earth.." heheh

For some reason this subject is an offense to you so I will not discuss it with you any longer.
All science also agreed that nothing could go faster than the speed of light. Scientists beleived and accepted this theory as true for years even based other theories on it. but in the light of new evidence the theory was proved wrong.(Just this year)
I want to think beyond the current theories. For I see them for what they are..theories only, not concrete facts.Thats why I like to research many different theories and maybe even come up with some of my own.
I respect your beleifs and theorys as I do all others.
peace.
In search of truth always,

pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 28 December 2000).]

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 28 December 2000 14:36
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Not to create dissention for I am a man of science but in my own town there were discovered dinosuar bones that were carbon dated to be 80 million years old. The bones were discovered in a farming area close to bisbee AZ. Now a christian farmer went home slaughtered one of his cows took a bone from it and snuck into the escavation site one that night and buried the cow bone so that the scientists would discover it the following day. And the scientists did. They carbon dated the cow bone and their results stated that the bone was over 50 million years old. Further more the scientist identified the cow bone as being from a dinosuar. They presented their findings that week and the farmer came publicly to dispute them pointing at his cow bone saying that the bone was not 50 million years old that and preached creation. Thge scientists debated claiming that they carbon dated the bone and this evidence proved them wrong. The farmer stated that the evidence couldn't be right. The scientists argued with the man. And finally the man stated "that bone can't be 50 million years old, I snuck that bone in yesterday it's my cow bone My cow ain't 50 million years old." everyone laughed and the story spread throughout our town and the scientist left our town in shame and completely humiliated and bewildered. They could no longer use their arguements to sustain the hoax of evolution for in one fowl swoop by a genius farmer their entire arguement was broaght to ruins.
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tomboy
unregistered posted 28 December 2000 20:50
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Hey TT_0
Can u take some photos' of the future while ur there?

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pamela
Member posted 29 December 2000 11:44
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Timetraveler_0~
When it is beginning to rain....
it is time to go rainbow gazing.

~pamela

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DaViper
unregistered posted 29 December 2000 16:15
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Pamela:
I'm not sensitive about it at all. And I also respect the religious beliefs of others. (I get a kick out of some of the stories I see preffered from time to time.) But when hypothesis are profferred to suport religious belief that can be proven to be scientifically incorrect, one needs to realize that while religion is a personal matter, one cannot cancel the laws of physics in order to cling to beliefs that simply are not true.

The only people that see conflict between religion and science are staunch religionists. Sagan, Einstein et al were both believers in God. Hawking is a pure Agnostic. Which means that while he does not firmly accept the existence of God, he doesn't reject it either.

Science is not attempting to disprove God (some scientists MAY be atheistic) but Science itself takes no stand on the existence of God. He either is, or He isn't. To science, it matters not either way.

Hey, maybe God DID create the Earth. But it's a simple fact that He did not create it in what WE refer to as "6 days" as is metaphorically described in Genesis.

If one's faith is truly strong, all the scientific FACT in the world shouldn't be able to shake it. Even when preposterous claims are made but such as 'rgrunt' above.

His story is an old one and is without basis in fact. It has been circulated by the "Creationists" for many years. If 'rgrunt' did just a little research, he would find that CARBON dating is not used in Paleontology for dating things from MILLIONS of years ago. Other radio-isotope methods are used. There are 5 all in all. Each has it's own period of effectiviness depending on the half-life or decay rate of the isotope involved.

No scientist would even TRY to date a 50 million year old sample with Carbon dating. And any story that claims someone did is pure fabrication and bunk since no scientist would ever claim that he has.

By all means, please keep searching for the truth. But don't take someone else's word for anything. Do the research. The web is full of good science and "snake oil" salesmen like 'rgrunt'.

I wish you peace and success in your search for truth.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 29 December 2000 16:29
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P. S. Pamela:
By the way, think about this.

Physicists for quite some time now have understood radioactive decay quite well. In fact so well, we've been able to construct clocks based of the decay of various elements.

Since these clocks are SO accurate, they are used by NASA to time events in the travel of our space vehicles. The precision involved in sending the Pioneer, Voyager, etc Spacecraft to the outer planets for picture taking is so intricate that only atomic clocks will do.

If our understanding of radioactive decay was flawed, then these clocks would not work as we intend them too, and those planetary fly-by events we all remember NEVER took place since the craft would have missed the targets by millions of miles.

Mr. 'rgrunt' has some homework to do.

By the way, Evolution is observable not only in Nature but reproducable in the laboratory. Those who claim it doesn't exist are either too afraid to admit they are wrong, or just plain too stubborn to accept reality.

It's a scary thing to be proven wrong. Once one realizes it, one is stuck with the idea that other things one believes in MAY be wrong also. This is hard for some people to accept since it shakes the foundation of their whole belief system.

But an open mind and a willingness to actually learn will always get one through the tough spots.

I have no idea how or why the Universe came into existence, but I'm not going to worry about it. And I'm for sure NOT going to buy into ideas of how it happened that simply are not so, and can be proven to BE not so.

I bid you a good day.

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Fast
Member posted 29 December 2000 17:46
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im sure that a group of scientists could tell the difference between a 'fresh' cow bone and a fossilized 50 Million Year Old Dinosaur bone...

Fast Out

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DaViper
unregistered posted 29 December 2000 19:02
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Fast:
Yup! (heh heh).

Without even having to resort to quantum decay timelines.

Fossilization is a process where actual organic tissue is replaced by inorganic mineral deposits leaving a remnant of the original in it's original form, but with no organic material intact.

In short, a true "fossil" is actually a form of stone, (like the "trees" in the Petrified Forest), while a bone is...well, a bone!

Only a blind idiot couldn't tell the difference. (Actually, a "blind idiot" could weigh the two and tell the difference for that!)

Peace.

And EVERYONE have a Happy New year.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 29 December 2000 19:32
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P. S. S.
And finally just one more...

(Couldn't resist on this next-to-next-to-last-day before the TRUE millenium.)

To all:

For the sake of pure information and learning, may I present the following links which will hopefully lay to rest the question of the difference between metaphor and actual history in attempts to understand the writings in the Bible.

Here's what we know on:

THE AGE OF THE EARTH http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/apprage.htm

THE RELIABILITY OF RADIOMETRIC DATING http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8851/radiometric.html#reliability

...and since I brought up "Dr" (sic) Kent Hovind earlier, here's a link to some of his foolishness: http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/kent_hovind's_challenge.htm

(Please, please, take note of the arguments HE presents and truly foolish they are from a purly LOGICAL standpoint, even before you get to the science parts that show what a ignoramus he actually is.)

He's the SOURCE of much of the foolishness that the likes of the 'rgrunts' of the world are pushing on us in the name of "science".

Ha! LOL

and finally, some humor for you. (Shades of the type of stuff 'rgrunt' has posted above.) http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/icr_suckered_by_april_fool's_joke.htm

Enjoy all.....

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P.Light
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 04:10
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To Anyone reading this...
What happened to the man of the moment T-T-0?!

All of a sudden i come back to check on the state of the nation and i find all you people talking about "great floods" and carbon dating! LOL!

Quite ammusing!

Anyhoo...it would be nice if we focus on the topic people!

Cheers,

P.Light

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Trott
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 07:45
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Mr. O,
I just read your postings. Something did catch my eye. You mentioned that the physics behind time travel will be realized within the next year at CERN. Currently, the project being run at CERN is the LEP, the large electron positron collider. It was scheduled to be shut down this past November but was not due to some potential evidence of a missing component of the Standard Model, the Higgs Boson. As you may or may not know, the Higgs boson is the theorized mechanism by which particles acquire mass. I will not mention more of this but suffice it to say that I am aware that for an object to travel at the speed of light it would have to be massless(that is to say if the photon is in fact a massless spin 1 boson as assumed). But in order to tip the light cone, you would need to travel faster than light.
While I do believe that time is not as fragile as some colleagues believe, I do find it interesting that someone would attempt to contaminate the time stream before a point in time at which time travel is possible. Actually, all current feasible theories of time travel negate the possibility of travelling back beyond the point at which the time machine was constructed.

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in the know
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 09:40
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AH! Is that the official story then? When did Mr. O arrive at this board? Nov. 2, 2000 I see.
Hmmmm....then again, maybe it had absolutely nothing to do with the diagrams CERN received in Nov.---but then again----
you never know.
good day!
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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 10:28
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(I think you know very well the answers to the questions you have asked. You just want to guage the quality of our replies, or just remind us that we SHOULD be up to speed on our constitutional rights and responsibilities.)
It would be nice to be able to remind everyone about their rights and responsibilities but I am not here to judge you. I am not capable of that nor would I want that in return. As you know, my interest is in history and in the paradox of thought. I do however, find it interesting how important the Constitution became to the average US citizen’s life, if even for a short moment.

(A young person should want to survive and live for better days ahead. At some point, however, an older person will realize, especially in the face of disaster, that better days are NOT on the horizon.......ever. What you are forcasting for 95% of the present population is 20 years of hell followed by survivors in the rubble. I've already put in my 40 year shift of work and worry. Why should we fret over politics on our way to slaughter? Isn't that like telling the Captain of the Titanic, that all he has to do to save the ship is to back up really fast after the collision?)

It saddens me that you do not realize your true worth as a keeper of information and experience. Perhaps the end that we fear will open your eyes to your true value as an individual. Young people need wisdom. The captain of the ship knows where the lifeboats are.

(When it is beginning to rain....
it is time to go rainbow gazing.)

I like the lyrics. They remind me of some other songs that are oldies but goodies from where I come from…anyone know these?

…gotta be home, by sunset. She asked me to giver her a ride, said she had to go, dropped her off by the trism through the atmosphere…by prism. Gotta keep movin , it was the human race to get away, sun bends light through a prism, she bent herself through the trism… …she pulls the lever and then bright light.

-- or this --

Waiting for bus number 99, goin’ to the store for hotdogs and wine when all of the sudden I felt real cold and wound up in the belly of a UFO... …Movin through the spheres at faster than light on our way to some planets that were out of sight… [well it had been 987 years in outer space when I got back, I couldn’t seem to find any of my friends to tell my interesting stories to.]

(Currently, the project being run at CERN is the LEP, the large electron positron collider. But in order to tip the light cone, you would need to travel faster than light. I do find it interesting that someone would attempt to contaminate the time stream before a point in time at which time travel is possible. Actually, all current feasible theories of time travel negate the possibility of travelling back beyond the point at which the time machine was constructed.)

I’m pretty sure they have a number of experiments going on at the same time at CERN. The one I’m referring to involves very high energies using protons. From my historical perspective on my worldline, I do recall the issue was a point of contention about 18 months ago or so. There were some scientists who thought the experiments were too dangerous to try. The time travel I refer to does not require faster than light travel and due to multiple world “reality”, paradoxes do not occur. Natural time machines do exist. Please check these web sites for the basics…on both ends of the scale.
http://www.leonllo.freeservers.com/blackworm.html http://www.geocities.com:0080/Area51/Station/5763/time.html

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[Darby]

Trott
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 11:57
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Hi Mr.O,
It is true that CERN has 4 detectors/experiments but they are all centered around the LEP experiment. There are no experiments at CERN which deal with accelerating protons at this time. There is a planned experiment in 2005, when the Large Hadron collider takes over the tunnel at which the LEP is located. The experiment you refer to is not at CERN it is at RHIC in Brookhaven National Lab on Long Island, it is an attempt to create a quark gluon plasma, a form of matter which would have been present shortly after the big bang but before condensation of quarks into particles like protons and neutrons.
I am aware of the possibility of using wormholes to time travel, however you are still unable to travel back beyond the point of the creation of the wormhole. Even the Tipler cylinder does not allow a traveller to go back beyond the point at which the cylinder was made. It has been my view that in order to have controlled time travel you would need to have a description of the quantum structure of space-time, otherwise I do not see how you could undertake the calculations that would be needed. One reason it is not certain that a wormhole could be used to travel through time is because it is believed that quantum fluctations around the mouth of the wormhole would act to collapse it. Just as in a similar fashion quantum fluctations around the event horizon of a black hole act to make it radiate particles and eventually evaporate.
If you are a time traveller from 2036, how do you plan to retake your place there. Your presence in this time frame would, as you have pointed out, cause a "temporal divergence" from the natural sequence of events. If you believe in the multiverse theory, may I ask you if you have memories of an unknown uncle being around while you were young?
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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 13:17
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To Trott:
I fear our conversation is in danger of turning due to an effect that is quite common on these boards. I realize what I’m saying is quite hard to swallow and it causes debate, weather serious or entertaining. It is even more difficult when you come into the middle of a conversation or a series of questions that are a few weeks old.

Your points are all quite valid and I have discussed them at length on this and other boards for quite a while. I do not wish to antagonize you however, we both know the Tippler cylinder is only a thought experiment to explain the very real physics behind Kerr black holes. As to your other comments, again, they are all true as defined by the limits of spacelike trips on single worldlines. It does not account for travel between worldlines.

I have never claimed to be a physicist or an expert on what the CERN laboratory is doing at any given moment so I feel it is pointless to argue about what they may be doing in the future or what "breakthroughs" they will or might have. My comments about the CERN lab are in reference to particle accelerators in general and other questions that have come up in the past. The major physics break through for controlled gravity distortion does happen at CERN in your future. Heck, we haven't even touched on "Z" field compression yet.

I suppose I could say that I was the one that traveled in time and convinced them to change their experiments but even I would have a hard time believing that one and I do not wish to insult your intelligence.

Just curious...what is it that interests you about time travel?

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Trott
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 14:10
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I am a graduate student in physics. I feel that the concept of time is in need of a lot more understanding. Because of that my interest in time travel is purely scientific. I am much more interested in the nature of time itself.
I must admit however that time travel would be the greatest technological breakthrough in all history. With such a machine all questions could be answered objectively.
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Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 25, 2002 16:13
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Author Topic: Time-travel Paradoxes!
TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 23:26
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I apologize for wasting this much space but I thought some of you would be interested in seeing this after reading some of things I've been saying in the last few months. Below is the address to the news site and a copy of the text.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=004071676359148&rtmo=r9XahmDX&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/00/12/31/wcia31.html
This is the world in 2015
By James Langton in New York

Global Trends 2015 - Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]

CIA

International Insitute for Strategic Studies

THE world is on the brink of a new era that may resemble the script of a James Bond film in which international affairs are increasingly determined by large and powerful organisations rather than governments, according to a study just published by the CIA in Washington.

Click to enlarge
[Large graphic]
These could include alliances between some of the most powerful criminal groups such as the Mafia and Chinese triads. Such groups, according to the CIA, "will corrupt leaders of unstable, economically fragile or failing states, insinuate themselves into troubled banks and businesses, and co-operate with insurgent political movements to control substantial geographic areas".

The agency adds: "Their income will come from narcotics trafficking; aliens smuggling; trafficking in women and children; smuggling toxic materials, hazardous wastes, illicit arms, military technologies, and other contraband; financial fraud; and racketeering."

The 70-page report, Global Trends 2015, will be required reading for the new president, George W Bush, and his senior policy advisers. It suggests that the early years of the coming century are likely to be filled with both potential and peril.

Compiled with help from think tanks in America and the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, the report projects a future in which globalisation, whether in the shape of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund, giant corporations or terrorist gangs, plays an increasing part in the lives of ordinary people.

"Governments will have less and less control over flows of information, technology, diseases, migrants, arms, and financial transactions, whether licit or illicit," it concludes.

In addition to confronting the growing economic and military power of China and India and the continuing decline of Russia, the CIA says: "Between now and 2015 terrorist tactics will become increasingly sophisticated and designed to achieve mass casualties."

In particular it notes the growing threat of biological and chemical weapons and "suitcase" nuclear devices against the United States. In addition, it expects rogue states such as Iraq and Iran to develop long range missiles in the near future.

Iran, it says, could be testing such weapons by as early as the coming year, and cruise missiles by 2004. Iraq could have missiles capable of hitting America by 2015, with both nations developing nuclear, chemical and biological warheads.

Potential flashpoints have a familiar ring and include India and Pakistan, China's relations with Taiwan, and the Middle East, where the best that can be hoped for is a "cold peace".

Elsewhere, the world population will grow by more than one billion, to 7.2 billion, most of the increase coming in the mega-cities of the developing world. In Europe and Japan, an ageing population and static birthrate means that allowing more immigration may be the only way of meeting a chronic shortage of workers.

The gloomiest predictions are reserved for Africa, where Aids, famine, and continuing economic and political turmoil means that populations in many countries will actually fall. At least three billion people will live in regions where water is in increasingly short supply.

On the other hand, there is good news on energy supplies. "Energy resources will be sufficient to meet demand," the study says. The CIA report is most optimistic on the world economy, which it says has a potential for growth not seen since the 1960s. Computer technology represents "the most significant global transformation since the Industrial Revolution".

"At the same time, genetically modified crops will offer the potential to improve nutrition among the world's one billion malnourished people. China's economy will grow to overtake Europe as the world's second largest but still behind the United States. Russia's economy will contract to barely a fifth of America's.

The study expects the European Union to narrow the economic gap with America. It points out, however, that "lingering labour market rigidity and state regulation" mean that "Europe will not achieve fully the dreams of parity with the US as a shaper of the global economic system".

The 2015 report is an update of a 1997 CIA study into the world in 2010, which it admits failed to anticipate the global economic crisis that occurred between 1997 and 1998 which had the hardest impact in the Far East and Russia.

The new survey suggests a number of alternative scenarios, none of which makes happy reading. These include a trade war between Europe and America, and an alliance between terrorist organisations to attack the West. Most alarming of all, it raises the possibility of economic stagnation, followed by America abdicating its role as the world's policeman.

At the same time tensions begin to grow in the Far East, where China orders Japan to dismantle its nuclear programme, leaving, the report says, no alternative but for "US re-engagement in Asia under adverse circumstances at the brink of a major war".

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Fast
Member posted 30 December 2000 23:59
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check this out..
words to the wise from a proclaimed time traveler from the year 2036
url: http://www.p3n.org/pn120100.shtml
things concerning TT_0 pop up everywhere..
who knows whos listening...

Fast Out

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djayr42
Member posted 31 December 2000 12:26
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So it seems to me that this is one possible, most likely scenario.
In about 4 years the voting system in this country will touch off a civil war. (Or at the very least the civil disobedience of many.) Because people will be divided about who should have power to do things, nothing will be done. When our foreign obligations become lax and we cannot hold up our end of an agreement, (in the far and mid east) they will see that as opportunity to move in on this country. They will feel that they have the right. This is going to take about 10 years for people to get angry enough to do something with more impact. During that 10-year period there will be groups (like organized crime) that will see the division of the people as an opportunity to get rich and/or get power. This will help the in those who seek to hurt this country. By the time we realize what is coming it is already too late, having been distracted by our own civil war and others with in who sought control. Basically we weren’t looking and got hit.

Doses this seem close? It has been the pattern for other countries in the past.

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 31 December 2000 12:43
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I'm flattered and a bit overwhelmed. I can honestly say I've never quite had this experience before. I appreciate the news posting. Thank you Time 02112
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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 31 December 2000 11:00
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Well...you're getting closer people. Here's another one I found today. Again, I apologize for taking up this much space but I thought you'de want to see this.
http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html
Science 2001

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A machine called Z

Under a ring of water in a sealed chamber in the middle of the New Mexico desert lies the heart of a machine that could change the world

Michael Paterniti
Sunday December 31, 2000

It is never night inside the Machine. Even after the sun has set on the mesa and Jimmy Potter and the frogmen and the men in white jumpsuits and the men in blue jumpsuits have showered, packed up, and gone home; even as yawning, befuddled scientists - with names like Jim Bailey and Mark Derzon and Melissa Douglas - sit in offices in a nearby building, trapped by their own reflections and in the blackened windows; and even as this oesophageal dark falls over coyote and jackrabbit and moves everything towards sleep and dreams, towards the deepest centre of the night, the Machine is awake.
Its 36 Marx generators are set in a ring like a metallic Stonehenge. The 20 Rexolite disks of the vacuum chamber look like flying saucers. Its vast, concentric pool of five-weight oil and deionized water seems bottomless - real oil and real water, in half-million-gallon tanks that sit one inside the other like a wheel within a wheel. Even now, there are depths in the Machine, invisible worlds revealing themselves, the secret body of the universe floating up. Deuterium, tritium, helium.

It begins with the flip of a cyber switch in the control room at the north end of the hanger. Before a bank of computer screens, a man clicks a mouse, and then electricity, quietly sucked off the municipal power grid in Albuquerque, floods into the outer ring of Marx generators. Which is when the Machine takes control. A siren sounds, red lights flash, doors automatically lock. The frogmen and the white and blue jumpsuits clamber over the high bay, down metal steps, and retreat to a copper-coated room behind a foot of cement.

Another switch is flipped, another mouse clicked. To the piercing sound of an alarm, a countdown in the Marx generators ensues, or rather a count up, in kilovolts, comes in a monotone, almost hollow voice beneath the frantic alarm. The man in the control room on a tinny loudspeaker, the Machine speaking through the human.

'Twenty kV...'

'Thirty kV...'

'Forty kV...'

At 90, the floodgates open: a pulse of electricity surges out of the Marx generators toward an inside ring of giant capacitors and then through a series of gas switches. The current is compressed by the Machine into a wild whitewater of electricity that charges toward the vacuum chamber at a speed of 60 million feet per second. On its way, it passes through painted sharks' mouths, drawn there by the men in white and blue jumpsuits in the way that fighter pilots sometimes draw on their warplanes to show their prowess - or hide their misgivings. The electricity pours past the sharks' mouths, is redirected downward, along the Z axis, into the vacuum chamber, blitzing and bombarding from all sides a three-dimensional target in a gold-plated can, a delicately strung array of tungsten wires the size of a spool of thread, hanging in black space like a tiny chandelier.

Driven so furiously in the Machine, and then storming the array, the pulse of electricity - enough juice now to light up America like a birthday cake - instantly vapourises the tungsten wire into plasma, a superheated ion gas. The ions hover and dance along the invisible circumference once described by the array, while a relentless magnetic field keeps pressing on them, shoving them from behind. Thrusting and squeezing and ramming until the ions can no longer resist, the centre cannot hold, and in that hot nanosecond - Boom ! Everything becomes one.

This is not a gentle conjunction but a Pandora's box suddenly ripped open by nuclear passion, an orgy of ions. Boom ! Lightning fills the Machine, veins out over the surface of the water. Temperatures flare to those inside the sun. The earth rocks once again. And in few billionths of a second, 290 terawatts - 80 times the power generated on earth at any given time - roar to life inside the Machine.

Watching it through a Plexiglas window, you might as well be watching the beginning of the universe. Or the end of it. Contained in that single flash of white light, when the Machine holds the heat and the power of the sun, when the room fills with lightning, there is everything we know - and everything we may become. The 21st century. A world covered by rooms of little suns, generating intense energy and, with it, the possibilities of time travel and galaxy hopping. Peace among nations. Or the end of time as we know it, a hole ripped in the universe by the Machine, something many doomsayers predict, and the earth sucked into oblivion. Our downfall or salvation. A fusion machine they call Z.

The magic bean; the Holy Grail: fusion. The idea is to take two isotopes of the hydrogen atom - deuterium and tritium - and mash them together with a little energy, which in turn releases enormous amounts of energy in the form of a single neutron. Contrarily, fission, the method widely employed by today's nuclear reactors, splits heavy uranium and plutonium atoms, creating lots of energy but also tons of dangerous and everlasting radioactive waste. Fusion offers a clean source, borne out of the material of roughly a handful of water and a handful of earth, with its only by-product being an easily disposable helium-4 nucleus.

What would fusion mean? Endless, cheap energy. Amazing Star Trek , space-travel possibilities. Fame, fortune, and undoubtedly a Nobel or two for the lucky scientists. For the better part of five decades, the race has two separate approaches: magnetic confinement and inertial confinement. Most researchers - those from Japan, Russia, Europe and America - focus on the former: big accelerators called stellarators, spheromaks, and tokamaks (a machine designed partly by Andrei Sakharov) use huge magnets to contain and compress hydrogen isotopes that hover in a kind of reddish-blue plasma inside the huge torus-shaped tubes until implosion.

On the other hand, the idea behind inertial confinement is that tiny fuel pellets of deuterium and tritium are bombarded by lasers or X-rays. In the case of the Z Machine, the explosion that occurs when ions are released by the vapourised wire array, and then when ions are pinched together, creates a huge X-ray pulse, one that scientists hope can be used to heat the tiny pellets and, in turn, create a small thermonuclear explosion. As it is, fusion has never been achieved for an extended time outside the explosion of a hydrogen bomb.

The first time scientists attempted to shoot an early incarnation of the Z machine, in June 1980, there was bravado and false bravado and downright fear. At Sandia National Laboratories on Kirtland Air Force Base, in the same New Mexican high-desert landscape of America's greatest, most frightening nuclear discoveries, they'd been working on the Machine for four years. Yet there were still unknown variables, a scientist's nightmare. First, it was so much bigger and more powerful than any of its predecessors. What if the Marx generators blew up before it could be shot? What if residual X-ray radiation contaminated people in the area? Or a fire destroyed the complex? And what if everything worked perfectly and they got a huge energy release that blew up Albuquerque itself? It was a scenario that had been considered at the highest level. As had something worse: what if people later wished that it had been only Albuquerque that blew up?

The shot - Sandia shorthand for the firing of the Machine - was scheduled for a Friday night. But then the machine blew a fitting. The technical crew - the frogmen, as well as the men in white and blue jumpsuits - worked feverishly, and by Saturday noon the Machine was ready again. 'No one knew what to expect,' remembers Gerry Yonas, 58, an engineer and physicist and one of the founding fathers of the Z Machine. They took all necessary precautions, charged the Marx generators, and crossed their fingers. A switch was flipped, electricity pulsated into the Machine, ripped through the switches, stormed on to the wires. There was a wicked jolt, and... silence. Sweet, beautiful silence. Everyone was still on earth; everything seemed to work. The feeling was surreal. 'I felt the ground shake,' says Yonas, grinning at the memory, 'and everybody said: "Let's do it again!" Nobody wanted to go home. I had to kick them out. There was nowhere else in the world to be. This was the beginning.'

The scientists, at that time a group of 20 or so men, threw high fives and drank beer. Pure, silly jubilation. Only later, photographs of what actually had occurred inside the Machine made them gasp: huge dragon snorts of fire filled the hangar. Apparently, plumes of oil had sprayed skyward in the instant of explosion, flamed, and then flamed out before the men returned inside the Machine. They had nearly blown themselves up. By the grace of some benevolent god, or the Machine itself, they were allowed to return to work on Monday morning, giddy limbs intact.

Over the next 15 years, the Z Machine gradually improved its output, packing an astonishing wallop - 20 trillion watts' worth of electrical output, as compared with the mea gre 100,000 amps of the first machine - but it wasn't enough. Scientists and theoreticians estimated that for high-yield fusion to be achieved inside the Machine, it would need to generate something over 1,000 trillion watts. A factor of at least 50 of Z's output.

Which is when the men in suits and ties tried to kill the Machine. It was a dinosaur, they argued, no longer useful. They felt Z-pinch technology could not yield the mother lode. By 1995, even Yonas, who was about to become a grandfather, was acutely feeling the passage of time. He sadly had to admit that maybe he should sacrifice Z and all the optimism that had driven the project. Perhaps achieving high-yield fusion, something scientists compare to the invention of the lightbulb for its potential to change the world, did indeed belong to the other fusion machines, the stellarators and spheromaks and tokamaks. To the Russians or the Japanese or the British or the confederate nerds at Princeton or Lawrence Livermore or Oak Ridge. And maybe Sandia National Laboratories - over time, a place known more for its secretive mystique, its downright weird nefariousness, dating to the cloak-and-dagger days of Little Boy and Fat Man - would have to sit on the sidelines while someone else gave the world perhaps its greatest legacy.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the chop shop. Maybe it was 11th-hour desperation, or some invisible bolt of providence visited on a few overworked scientists, a couple of whom lit on the simple idea of stringing the wire array, the spool-sized target at the centre of the Machine, with double, then triple, the tungsten wire. All of a sudden - Boom ! Forty trillion watts! No one believed it. They reconfigured the Machine, boosting its X-ray production. Then someone, Melissa Douglas, thought to stack the arrays. Boom ! Two hundred trillion watts in a single pulse! Short of a nuclear blast, it was the most energy ever released on earth, and suddenly, in 1998, after five decades of chasing the illusion of high-yield fusion, of regarding it as some far-off Atlantis or dark galaxy's edge, the Z Machine was a third of the way there.

In science, if you do something once that's never been done before, it's considered a mistake. Do it twice, and it's simply a mirage. But the third time it becomes the truth. With Z's new, seemingly impossible results came the first flickering sign that some deep, unknowable power resided in the Machine. And so today, the Z Machine is considered one of the world's best hopes for achieving fusion. 'We may not understand how we get these huge pulses of power, the meaning may still elude us,' says Yonas. 'But it's still a fact.'

One that Yonas himself, at first, had a hard time grasping. After he was handed the results, he remembers squinting at them, and sitting back at his desk as if blown by a solar wind. 'My God,' he said in a small voice. 'This could work. This could really work.'

Listen to the Z scientists, to their best idea ('The use of stark-shifted emissions to measure electric-field fluctuations and acceleration gaps'), and their dream ('To remedy plasmic instability and create higher temp- eratures'), and you enter a kind of friend country that becomes an Andean prison from which it gets harder and harder to escape. The scientists admit that, at moments, their whole selves are inseparable from the Machine, that the pull of the Machine is so great that re-entering normal life can be nearly impossible.

Jim Bailey, a handsome, soft-spoken, loafer-wearing plasma physicist whose conversation is peppered with references to spectroscopy and 'the visible regime', says sometimes it's even hard to go to a neighbour's barbecue - can't make small talk, can't communicate what you do - let alone talk to your wife. Mark Derzon, a boyish, bearded nuclear physicist, says he works a system with his wife: when he walks through the door at the end of a day, he says green light ('Yes, everything is fine, I'm ready for the kids'); yellow light ('Give me 15 to decompress'); or red light ('I need time'). Melissa Douglas says that there's no line drawn at all between the Machine and her private life - that the Machine, her place inside of the Machine, studying something called Rayleigh-Taylor instabilities, is her private life. And now, at the age of 36, she's watched her friends get married, have families, settle, and on occasion she's wondered to herself: 'what am I doing? Can we really make fusion work?'

Since the 1950s, the US government has invested nearly $15bn to find out, always with the promise that fusion is just around the corner - two, three, five years away - and, with it, a fusion revolution that would hurtle us to the centre of the earth, the deepest trenches of the ocean, and the farthest reaches of space. A revolution that would morph the Third World into the First World until we are simply One World.

After all, how many wars have been fought over oil? And then, with oil reserves expected to reach full depletion by 2050, how many more will be? Remove oil as a vital component of our speed-driven, chip-fitted age and, sure, people would find things to brawl over, but energy wouldn't be one of them.

And with limitless, cheap energy, the development of poorer nations wouldn't be one of them, either.

And with development, the have-nots and pariahs of the world would theoretically join the haves, and so food and housing and education wouldn't be one of them.

And with a higher standard of living would come a new freedom for humanity. For at its heart, fusion, as a Utopian ideal, has always symbolised freedom; freedom from the mistakes and waste of our past, the Hanford Reservations and the Savannah River Sites - those vast, spooky, radiating underground storage facilities chambered with containers of plutonium and iodine waste, on top of which America is built. Though left unsaid, the race for fusion has always been about democracy or a democratic alternative.


And yet one of the biggest threats to fusion comes from the same group of people responsible for the Hanford Reservations and the Savannah River Sites: the US Government. Recently, Congress and various federal agencies have become disenchanted by the fusion dream. Critics have lambasted it as a waste of time and money. If we haven't achieved it in the last 45 years, they argue, we never will. The US has dropped out of a proposed $10bn international fusion project called ITER, leaving the facility in doubt of completion. Meanwhile, the government has spent $3bn, with as much as an additional $43bn to come, on developing Nevada's Yucca Mountain as a vast nuclear-waste site - despite well-documented problems - and continues its commitment to fission reactors despite the fact that radioactive waste can be lethal up to 600 millennia after burial. Leaders in fusion field, like the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, have mothballed their big machines, laid off staff, and now are fighting simply for their own survival.

'You have to find a way to justify doing something that you may never see accomplished in your lifetime,' says Jim Bailey, who has a penchant for reading Hume. 'I mean, instead I could be working for a cancer cure, with at least a greater hope of finding one. But I'm OK with this. I've made my peace with it. Fusion will be the greatest scientific achievement of our time.'

Yonas, with the Super Bowl confidence of Joe Namath, predicts that usable high-yield fusion will be made available to the American public by an accelerator called X-1, a generation or two beyond Z, within three decades - maybe sooner. Mark Derzon, a member of what's called the Advanced Concepts Group at Z, has designed what would be the first practical Z-pinch reactor - 'A zero-miracle power plant,' he cheerfully proclaims, and believes that the Z technology is rougher and tougher, able to sustain more of the constant rock and roll of such a plant, than are the sensitive lasers and vacuums necessary for magnetic confinement. But optimism usually carries the day only past lunch; the request to draw up preliminary plans for X-1, with its price tag of up to $1bn dollars, is likely to be approved by the Department of Energy.

'Every day, it's a leap of faith,' says Neal Singer, a science writer at Sandia. 'Adding wires to the array - where did that idea come from? From the outside it makes no sense. It's incredibly complex and difficult to string tungsten wires 1/10th the diameter of a piece of hair and space them perfectly. And they did it and got tremendous results. Then they added more and more, spaced them a little differently and now we're a third of the way there. It takes these little steps, this day-by-day thinking. Hour after hour. Ten, 12, 14 hours a day. The constant question is, Can you just make a little change to influence the result?'

Thus the world inside the Machine is driven down to its smallest, most maddening detail. For in the end, fusion - its possibility and reality, its attainment and capture - comes out of this finely tuned call-and-response with the universe itself, the channelling of some great unknown, copulating force that calls for the perfect alignment of human and Machine. That is, the human culture surrounding the Machine attempts to mimic the Machine itself , which is trying to mimic the universe. The mannerisms of the Machine become the mannerisms of its minions - people rage and tyrannise, overheat, relent, synergise, procreate, vanish, and recur. One idea seems brilliant and fails, while another may start as a quail but then, compressed by other ideas - electrons stripping off, ions colliding - transforms into something sharp and fast, something agitatingly, beautifully right. And then, of course, it is shot into the Machine to see if it is.

Still there is Melissa Douglas's nagging doubt, which is the nagging doubt of everyone here. On certain days, it is possible to believe that you are merely trapped in the rubble of some cosmic joke with no punch line, that Godot is eating chilli dogs somewhere and won't be able to make it. After all, Jim Bailey's lab books are full of 13 years' worth of jottings; Mark Derzon has pulled countless all-nighters in the name of what may or may not be the reactor of the future; Melissa Douglas has spent entire months of her life obsessing over a single equation, the pallor of her face reflecting only pale computer light - all of this thought and activity and faith belying the possibility that their efforts might be for nothing. And yet as much as the race for fusion is a race against the Russians at Triniti labs, or the Germans at FZK labs, or other American scientists at Lawrence Livermore, it's also literally a race against the ticking internal clocks of each scientist who entertains the question: will I live to see it?

'History forgets the individual,' says Mark Derzon pensively, surrounded by no fewer than 30 photographs of his young daughters. 'One day Plato will be forgotten. Ultimately, the name you make for yourself is not the important thing. It's what you did, what you stood up for, what you acted on. Did you try to make the world a better place? In order to do it, the world needs fusion. I just happen to think that Z is the best way to get there. And we're going to have one serious pizza party around here if it is.'

Jimmy Potter stands inside the Machine, glaring down into the half-million-gallon pool of water at the submerged refrigerator-sized capacitors where, he suspects, there may be a broken, bubbling gas switch. Potter, a Texan, is the keeper of the Beast, the man who oversees the whole shebang for today's shot. 'Are those bubbles down there?' he asks out loud, vexed. 'We already sent the divers in. I sure hope not.'

If Potter is driven by perfection, then he is merely a reflection of the culture at Sandia National Laboratories. And if the quest for fusion is intensely competitive, Moonily quixotic, and at times downright nasty, then Sandia mirrors, among its myriad projects, many of those same contradictory characteristics. Top secret or otherwise, spread over the dusty 27-square-mile patch of Kirtland Airforce Base, the projects include the training of honeybees to detect land mines, the invention of a foam that kills anthrax, the making of a synthetic sludge, and the perfecting of various micromachines, some so small as to be undetectable by the human eye, which might be used to lock down nuclear weapons. Sandia is the home to Teraflops, the fastest computer in the world, as well as the birthplace of moly-99, a radioactive substance widely used in medical procedures. On the east of the base, behind three rows of concertina wire, is a cluster of foothills rumoured to be now-empty nuclear silos. They seem to stand as a reminder of how closely the isotopes of Thanatos and Eros can be held in the same idea, for it to be a real idea, a saving idea, both have to be there, threatening to undo us and remake us at once. To obliterate and immortalise.

Potter couldn't care about all that. 'My job is to work with the personalities here,' he says, now pacing the high bay, twitching with pent-up energy. He slips behind a pig (a radiation shield), and checks a silver box that houses a cryogenic pump. He monitors the tech crew, confers with the lead scientist on the shot, keeps everything running on time. 'You've got your top of the Ivy League class,' he continues. 'You've got prima donnas with huge egos. And you've got technicians who at least graduated high school. Nobody can operate without the other. The first thing that happens with two strong personalities is clash. It's my job to go to one and bring him up and maybe bring the other one down and then bring them together.'

Of course, there are days when everything feels charged with Shakespearean plots and counterplots, days when tension fills up around the Machine. All of it is caused by the Machine, which rarely exists, of course, in its aluminum-and-Rexolite grandeur, oblivious. There is head-butting between the young comers kicking with ideas and the upper echelon of Z veterans, who ultimately hold the power here. There are Iagos trying to ice someone else's idea in order to promote their own. (The lab rewards the best with bonuses.)

'I've become a lot more aggressive,' says Melissa Douglas, one of only three women among the 60 full-time scientists who work on Z. 'You have to really stand your ground. It was very hard for me to do that at first.' In four years on the project, she remembers her worst day as the one when she delivered a seminar and a colleague heckled her mercilessly. Why? Was she that stupid? Did her PhD in plasma physics and her postdoc at Los Alamos make her that inept? So she took her weakness, her insecurity, her lack, and shot it into the Machine, and it came back as power, 290 terawatts' worth.

As have others. Marriage is shot in. Love is shot in. Innocence and experience and numbers are shot in, and come back as something almost holy.

While many of these scientists consider themselves agnostic, they are quick to admit that they still find themselves in thrall to the unknown, to the force that pulses through the Machine. 'In a deep sense, I would say that my greatest satisfaction here comes from the act of creation,' says Jim Bailey. 'Because what we're trying to do is create knowledge that didn't exist before. Whether that brings us closer to God or not, I don't know. It brings us closer to an understanding of the universe, and if you want to think of God in those terms, then I suppose you could define it that way.'

Melissa Douglas describes the charge of joy she gets from a perfect photograph of a Rayleigh-Taylor instability taken inside the vacuum chamber by a pinhole camera at the moment of the wire array's implosion. 'A beautiful picture!' she says, holding up a snapshot that looks more like a Rorschach test - kind of blobby with spikes and valleys. 'It sounds ridiculous, but when I first saw it I jumped and hopped around the room. Ecstatic. Just amazing. Being around this machine, you can't help but feel awe. The universe is mathematical and, you know, God is a mathematician.'

And Jimmy Potter - Jimmy Potter is clearing the high bay as sirens sound for all personnel to vacate the Machine and retreat to the control room. Today's shot will attempt to find a way to bombard the wire array uniformly with electricity, so that each last kilovolt of energy can be accelerated into the Machine and come back as more. 'I mean, how do you explain all this to someone outside of this place?' he says, gesturing toward the Machine. 'We don't make a product that can be sold. You can't really see what's going on on in that vacuum chamber. I usually just tell people I work with X-rays. That we've got a big machine doing big things, and one day we're gonna change your life.'

Dawn inside the Machine, and it's silent. The frogmen and the men in white and blue jumpsuits are arriving, shaking off their sleep, downing coffee. Jimmy Potter got the shot last night, downloaded the diagnostics, sent everyone home saying they'd take apart the Machine today, and then drove the half hour to his house, over the mesa and the beautiful landscape, to his wife and kids, trying to forget this place for a few hours. At 5.30am, he was back, rallying the crew, which now has sluggishly begun its work, drilling and hammering at the vacuum chamber.

The people of Z admit there's a new inten sity, especially given the Machine's recent exponential gains. There's something to prove - and they need to prove it fast. Plans to win funds to build a cheaper, intermediary machine named ZX, one that will lead to X-1, are the stuff of new worry and hope. And, like life on the edge of any new frontier, there is still the possibility of danger.

But there are dreamy days here as well. There are times when some Z scientists find it hard not to let there minds wander, to entertain versions of fusion-propelled rockets arcing the local solar systems, of fuel stations on the moon or Io or Pluto, wherever you can pick up a little lithium and water. And there are others who imagine it as the Peace and Love Machine, who've put their trust and idealism for the best possible world in Z. And to get Peace and Love from the Machine, they have to shoot in their souls, holding nothing back.

Now the crane groans over its huge tracks above the Machine, preparing to lift off the 8,000lb crown of the vacuum chamber. Last evening, the Machine inhaled the sun, this room filled with lightning, and then everything exploded. Now, when the crown is unbolted, hitched to a hook, and lifted away by the crane, a group of men tentatively peer down into the Machine, goggle-eyed, perhaps expecting to find some traces of gold dust or, more absurdly, a pile of confetti - or, by some miracle of the universe, maybe a fully formed angel, sleeping with its white wings pleached and sooty, its legs twisted under its body, both comical and impossible.

So the men look and look, down into the centre of Z, the womb of the Machine, for some message there sent back from the invisible world. But it is just a well of black space - plasma and atoms unable to hold the weight of their gaze, the chill of their wonder.

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[Darby]

NoTime
unregistered posted 31 December 2000 11:34
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A "Z" machine with a Marx generator -- is this something invented by Zeppo Marx?
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rgrunt
unregistered posted 31 December 2000 13:07
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Dear Mr Deviper,
Interesting indeed I will look up the points you stated for they are quite compelling. I do admit that the information I recieved came second hand so I trully cannot vouch for the accuracy of the statements in the story and I appologize to the people on the forum for the confusion. My father once told me that there are two topics that can never be agreed upon...religion and politics. However I do hold to my beliefs but without having performed carbon dating or other methods myself I cannot testify for or against their legitimacy. Is there any documented proof of a positive recorded in any lab? If do you have access to this proof that you may back your claims that creation is completely proven wrong as you so subtely implored in the last two paragraphs? Can you explain to me how it is more logical for such an intelligent existance to acurr merely by trillions of chance happenings whose probabillity of actually acurring is practically imeasurable then for an infinitely intelligent creator to have planned the creation. Do the numbers it is far more logical and probable for the universe to have been created then just to have acurred. By the way infinity has to exist. For infinity not to exist is a violation of thermal dynamics in that something cannot come from nothing. So if every chance happening accurs from a "big bang" before which nothing existed then something came from nothing. No this is not disputed by religion but by scientific law. Tell me how to get around this one. Let us first try to analyse order and chaos. In an infinite period of time does a universe with a mixture of order and chaos degrade to pure chaos resulting in a constant state of infinite entropy. Or does the universe gravitate to a universe of infinite order? Hot or Cold is the big question. If, on the one hand we have an infinite number of quantized randoms confined to a volume what is the shape of that volume? In this case the shape of the volume will be a perfect sphere on acount an infinite number of two or three constantly varying shapes would be at such compression as to form a constant uniform surface or volume. Thus an infinite number of randoms equills perfect order...yet even in such a universe we are measuring the randoms which must therefore exist. The measurement we made and the deduction is in no way connected to the origins of the quantities existant therein by a subtransfinite period. I say subtransfinite instead of infinite because I believe the universe is both finite and infinite and that time and space are quatiized and any movement in them. Thusly I believe that the distance in a finite space-time to infinity in this bounded space-time is finite. Thus any numeral beyond the barrier of the universe is not infinite but a finite number to big to fit in this universe so it exists in the area beyond the present universe...the past or future. If measure infinity in the small beyond any given center mass lies superluminosity and therefore past. The velocity of light is the folcrum point that exists in and marks the boundary between the infinite past and infinite future.I imagine that at this velocity one could part this reality and find another in the past or come in contact with the future. Tell me what would happen to matter if one were to burst infinitely into the future and back in a splitt second? I appologize I got side tracked this is supposed to be an inquisition to evaluate whether or not science supports or crumbles Creation. I appologize I have tried to see how a universe of nonexistance could come into to existance in the form of an infinite number of randoms and I can see no logic in this only a border created to establish the area of impossibility within for the existance of a universe to derive from nothing. But the relation that I see between the domain of non-existance and existance is unstated. I would have said non-linear but even these mathematical interactions acurr within the finite universe. It would appear that only super finite actions could exist within this region of nonexistance thus defining this region an infinite(beyond finite). I see no place for nothing in existance. There is no displacement within an infinite mass and I can therefore not see the possiblility of manufacturing a place of non existance save by an infinite being who alone could traverse this clause to make a domain existant seperated on all sides from the rest of existance by a border of absolute absolute infinite limit.

All of this is purely my own ascertaining so it more then likely contains some flaws. I also want to state that I ment no insult by the way I stated my view up on top but this is merely how I learned to debate. I assumed creation side of the arguement and stated what I could ascertain in the hopes that others will debate my claims so that I and others may gain knowlege.

Teach me,
let us discover the truth.

Edwin G. Schasteen

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Trott
Member posted 31 December 2000 23:51
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Who receives the Nobel Prize for inventing time travel? Surely, since there is a divergence from your time line such information would be of no consequence to divulge.
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pamela
Member posted 01 January 2001 02:01
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Another time traveler????
check out: http://paranormal.about.com/science/paranormal/cs/timetravel/index_3.htm
scroll down till you get to: "the Wave Rider"
I would have copied and pasted it but it is a handwritten copy of faxes.

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Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 25, 2002 16:19
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(This group of postings not numbered. Not sure where it went.)

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 11:47
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Greetings and happy holidays everyone. I am very surprised and delighted to see the conversation going in the direction it has on this thread. Unknowingly, you all have stepped into the real mystery of time travel that remains speculative in 2036. Based on a couple of questions I see here, I will try my hardest to describe what we in 2036 think space-time looks like and how it behaves. Please keep in mind that I realize how easy it is to dismiss what I say. First, I’m trying to do this from memory. Imagine you are back in 1911 trying to explain a jet engine to the Wright brothers. However, there are some very basic properties of quantum theory that support this model today. I appreciate the fact that you are reading this with an open mind.
(If parallel universes do exist, did they all start simultaneously? I mean, let's assume that the universe originated from a singularity. Were there any parallel universes at that point? That would not be very logical and it would also imply that there is a parallel universe in which our universe never existed.)

It is thought that the event called the “Big Bang” was the start of not only this worldline or universe but all worldlines and all universes that make up the superuniverse. It is also thought that the superuniverse can be imagined as an expanding sphere with the big bang in the center.
Individual worldliness (or timelines as you call them) can be imagined as lines originating at the center and “trending” toward spiraling around the sphere until they reach the edge. The individual worldlines expand in length and widen as you follow them from the center. Each individual “moment” or “event” on a world line has infinite possibilities or outcomes. Imagine this as a single point with infinite lines shooting away from it, which in turn are made up of points with their own possibilities and outcomes. Now, remember, these individual worldliness with all these points and possibilities are defined by their ability to hold there inhabitants to timelike trips only (no faster than light travel).

Now consider the reality of a spinning or electrified black hole (Kerr). Penrose diagrams of these oddities show mathematically that you can make simulated spacelike trips (faster than light) through the singularity without being destroyed. In order to do this without wiping out most modern physical laws, you must travel to an alternate worldline or universe. Therefore, if multiple worldlines exist, infinite worldlines exist.

In trying to imagine a superuniverse with infinite possibilities and worldlines, I think of a room with mirrors on all the walls. You are aware of your captivity but as you look in the distance, you see an infinite number of “yours” in an infinite number of mirrored rooms. The gravity distortion machine allows you to “step” out of your room and into another next to you. The closer you are to your original room, the closer it looks like yours, the farther away, the stranger it looks to you.

(…If I go forward on this world line, the future will not be my future. I get home by going back to 1975 before I arrived and then going forward to 2036.")

A few people have asked me about this statement so I will try to clarify it.

On my worldline (A) in 2036, I was given a mission in 1975.

I turn my machine on and jump to another worldline (B) in 1975 with about a 2% divergence from (A).

From the very point I turn my machine off on (B), I create a new worldline just because I’m there. This line can be described as (C) and started when I got to (B).

I am now doing my mission on line (C) in 1975 when I discover a very a good reason to go forward on (C) and see what happened. I turn my machine on and go forward on (C) to the year 2000.

When I turn it off, I start another line called (D). So from my perspective, here we are on line (D) in the year 2000. In order to go home to line (A) I must turn my machine on and go back on (D) until I reach (C) which in turn would take me back to (B) which in turn takes me to a point before I arrived on (B) then I go forward from the point I arrived on (B) back to (A).

If all this isn’t enough to get your head spinning…here are some issues we’re dealing with in 2036.

1. Did your worldline (D) exist at all before I got here from (C)? (personally I don’t see how it couldn’t)

2. What happens at the end of a worldine at the edge of the superuniverse?

3. If there are infinite worldlines and infinite possibilities and an edge to the superuniverse, doesn’t that mean occurring events on worldliness are staggered as they reach the edge? (time could end at any moment without warning).

Happy new year everyone!

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 30 December 2000 13:37
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To: Roel van Houten
Thank you for trying to answer those questions but I really do not expect that anyone can. I thought I would share with you things we wonder about. Your logic about me is quite correct but again I must state that I am not trying to get you or anyone else to believe or buy anything.

As far as evidence goes…I have however decided to try an experiment with you that may be more convincing. It involves the travel of information at faster than light. In fact, I have dropped at least three little gems like this that no one else has picked up on.

You said you are confused by the 5100 story. I will explain further. In 2036, it was discovered (or at least known after testing) that the 5100 computer was capable of reading and changing all of the legacy code written by IBM before the release of that system and still be able to create new code in APL and basic. That is the reason we need it in 2036. However, that information was never published by IBM because it would have probably destroyed a large part of their business infrastructure in the early 70s. In fact, I would bet the engineers were probably told to keep their mouth’s shut.

Therefore, if I were not here now telling you this, that information would not be discovered for another 36 years. Yet, I would bet there is someone out there who can do the research and discover I am telling the truth. There must be an old IBM engineer out there someplace that worked on the 5100. They just might not have ever asked if I hadn’t pointed it out.

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 06 January 2001 13:10
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((I realize that you said you are not a physicist, but I was curious if you are from the future: What is the current status of string theory?))
Who doesn’t love string theory? Please forgive the next few comments, I’m trying to be cryptic and jump starting my memory at the same time. In 2036, string theory still dominates physics due to its continued “effect” of encompassing other physical properties from unrelated fields. A great deal of the theoretical mathematics behind time travel was discovered by testing various ideas in string theory and eliminating the anomalies. As I recall, it was this original work that led to the final proof that six dimensions do indeed curl up to give us our observable universe. This in turn supported more of the theoretical math behind time travel…etc. It’s ironic that the beauty of string theory gives future engineers the confidence to create the distortion unit even though the final proof is still unknown. You’re a physics student, have you ever heard the Princeton String Quartet play?

Trott
Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 20:40
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Mr. TT_0,
I am familiar with the Princeton String Quartet. They are physicist who are working on string theory at the Advanced Institute of Physics at Princeton University in New Jersey.

You mentioned a divergence from time lines. How is it possible to measure such a divergence? I would assume that it would be impossible to calculate how causes of one single event would propagte into the future. Does not chaos theory make such determinations impossible? Even if I gave you the exact position and velocity of all objects in the universe (which is impossible(I can not even give you the exact position and velocity of a single object due to the Heisenberg Uncertainity Principle)) you could not tell me what the future holds. Of course this results from the fact that the objects do not represent individual closed systems but in fact can interact.

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Trott
Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 20:53
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P.S.
You said 6 curled up dimensions. The current theory suggests that there should be at least 7 curled up dimensions. It was discovered by Ed Witten that if you added an additional dimension that the 5 slightly different versions of string theory would combine into a single theory, which is often called M-theory.

I think it would be interesting if one of these extra dimensions was timelike. There are very few people investigating this possibility.

IP: Lo

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 15 January 2001 13:36
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RGRUNT:
Thank you for considering the problem of returning home. You seem to have stumbled on an intuitive proof of some of the physics of time travel. You are correct, getting back to the worldline of origin is easier than picking an exact destination on a different worldline.

I wrote down the graphic you outlined. If y1 starts perpendicular to x1 and x2 and is rotated, where is the center of rotation? I imagined it between x1 and x2. If this is so, wouldn’t y1 end up parallel between x1 and x2 with each one being 6 inches away from y1 on either side?

SHADOW:

((The artificial singularity you travel with, you say it forms a local gravity field. Does it physically reduce the size of nearby objects during operation? And if so by how much? ))

Actually, there are 2 singularities in the unit. The gravity field is manipulated by three factors that affect it in distinct ways. Adding electric charge to the singularities increases the diameter of the inner event horizons. Adding mass to the singularities increases the area of gravitational influence around the singularities. Rotating and positioning the polar axis of the singularities affects and alters the gravity sinusoid.
The effects of the gravity produced by the unit do not have enough time to significantly alter physical objects within a reasonable distance from the outside of the sinusoid. No, things do not get smaller.

((If the electron injection system alters the shape of the field, would that not force the unit to accelerate through space as well as time?))

There is no relative movement in space due to three main factors. Large, kinetic energy inducing effects of the gravity field are compensated for by the interaction of the singularities. The mass of the unit and any objects inside the sinusoid do not exhibit any huge increases on the departure worldline during travel. The observed path of the traveler is obtained by changing the gravity, not by moving the vehicle. The black hole comes to you.

((The question is define "time"))

To me, time has two definitions.
I see time as a mathematical component of a 10 dimensional super universe. It is a variable I use to define my location and existence.

I also see time as a metaphysical compromise our senses use to define the area of collective existence God has placed us in.
When I can measure and sense time, I know I am not with God.

--------------------
Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 25, 2002 16:21
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pamela
Member posted 01 January 2001 10:29
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piecing together the information in the faxes provided by the "waverider" it sounds to me that if this be true then it is some form of advanced remote viewing.consider the following on how he describes how he time travels:
"I am a time traveler. Although we refer to it as riding the wave. I am a US citizen born in 1964. I am nearly 40 years old. In 1983 I enlisted in the united states Army .it was shortly after my enlistment and before completing basic training that I was approached by those I now refer to simply as MY FRIENDS. This group does not contain aliens nor interdimensional beings, they are human.
I have learned over the years that not everyone can safely travel the wave, and I was first approached, I was told, due to an unusually large amount of some chemical that naturally occurs in the human body, it somehow aids in the time travel process,(MY FRIENDS told me what chemical it was back then,but that was many years ago. and I have long forgotten the name of the stuff. I think it has some copper or something in it.) I have since learned that when i enlisted in the US ARmy MY FRIENDS gained a large amount of information about me. My genetic history and so forth, and it was this information that changed my life forever."

"I should first explain how I travel in time. The short and sweet of it is that I was taught to target a particular person, place or event. The more information I have on the target the better my chance of success and the faster I reach my target. I take a photo of the target. a sheet of paper with the information on it, a map of the site etc. I circle the target and begin the process. I then enter a quiet darkened area (we use to call it the pad) a period of concentration and meditation begins. For days, weeks, sometimes even months after beginning I will study the target, concentrate on the target,even begin to dress in the period clothing of the target during my time in the pad ( only about two hours per day is all I can manage.) as I begin the feel the wave approaching, i look for the doorway, the gateway. the rip in the fabric of time or whatever you want to call it.For me it almost always looks like a pool of water that I pass through before entering the new time line. Some time travelers had only out of body experiences (these people we call projectors) others of us (called wave riders) physically disappear from the current timeline. Early on in the project I would use a small electromagnetic tuner to help me concentrate and focus on the target, I no longer use any aid when waveriding."

Interesting....the US Army again...
Timetraveler_0 have you ever heard of the "Waveriders"?

-pamela

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 01 January 2001 15:34
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Well it's a good thing I got injured in the Army, or else that might have been my fate as well.
J.C.

P.S. I'm home... =)

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Curious
unregistered posted 01 January 2001 17:31
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Pamela, what the Waverider is describing sounds a lot like the technique used by the Incunabula/Ong's hat group. They supposedly had developed inter-dimentional travel. check out tis site: http://www.incunabula.org/
A lot of the info on the site seems to be disinfo, but then there are pieces of the truth mixed in. Here is another site with another point of view: http://it.t.boltpages.com/it.t/
Dimentional displacement requires less power and technology then temporal displacement.

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Time02112
Member posted 01 January 2001 17:36
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TT_0,
I appreciate your comments here, and I thought I would provide you with an example of just how appreciated you are.
(You're sincerely welcome my Friend!...any"Time"
Below is a copy of a recent email from p3n:>
From: "Webmaster"
To:
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:34:13 -0800
Subject: Re: The "Z" Machine

Hi Gary,

I posted a link to the "Z" machine story yesterday, the second I saw it.

Thanks for sending the "Proclaimed" Time Traveler story. It was one of the
best things that has come into P3N and with the help of links from other
websites it has been one of the most visited pages. It was also very thought
provoking. Please feel free to submit more writings or links to good stories
when you find them.

Thanks again,
Rick Reed
Webmaster P3N
--------------------------

Pamela, I am very familiar with this "Waverider" I listened to his info. on the former "Art Bell Show" known today, as the current "Coast To Coast AM" program.
since "Premier Radio Networks" purchased Art Bell's Legacy for a sumisable amount. http://coasttocoastam.com
you can listen to pre-recorded programs, up to 30 days, in the "Past Shows" selection, on their website. Anything beyond 30 days, you will need to purchase a tape.

I believe that this "Waverider" information & faxes, are still available in text & jpg formats on the coast to coast website.

[This message has been edited by Time02112 (edited 01 January 2001).]

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[Darby]

Time02112
Member posted 01 January 2001 18:25
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TT_0
What could you surmise, as to what might happen, as a result if you provided us with copies of various news articles in relation to "Technology Reports" published a year in our future, or any "Time" after (Such as in your "Worldline" as you so describe?
*Could You?
*Would You?

And please explain your reasons for why you would, or would not do something like this for us?

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Fast
Member posted 01 January 2001 18:59
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i think that when Art Bell retired(unknown reason..) he said that the Wave Rider was not real,it was just some guy messing around.he told that to the sheriff in his town,or something similar..
i could be mistaken..

Fast Out

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 01 January 2001 20:38
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I see that I have returned just in time. The concept of Time Travel has overwhelmed some with the idea of accepting it, and going along with it. Have you all forgotten that Time Travel is a means of controlling who we are. For a future collective agenda.

My site is updated, check it out.

-INDIVIDUALS OPPOSED TO TEMPORAL MANIPULATION-
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/

J.C.

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pamela
Member posted 01 January 2001 23:24
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Curious,
thankyou for providing the links to Ong's hat they are very interesting.I will be looking at it more indepth.
Time 02112,
boy, the "z" machine story got around pretty quick!

Fast,
If Art Bell has admitted to the time traveler being fake why are the stories still posted on his site? Knowing Art Bells
character I think he would have written a follow up letter on it or pulled all the faxes from the site.
It still does not mean the faxes are legitimate however.
one thing I have been noticing though is some of the predictions were not acurate. A time traveler from another worldline can really only testify to what he has seen on his worldline. but now I am beginning to wonder....how many timetravelers are out there? how many are on this worldline at any given time? how many times can you alter events before something happens?
a lot of what waverider spoke on in his final faxes sounds a lot like timetraveler_0's testimony. I know TTO is going to be really interested in reading waveriders faxes. perhaps he may be able to relate to some of the language written.

sincerely,
pamela

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Trott
Member posted 02 January 2001 12:46
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Timetravel Activist,
If you believe in the multi-universe interpretation of quantum mechanics than everything with a non-zero possibility plays out. Therefore, I do not see how one could say that your future or history is being changed since one possibility, if time travel is possible, is for your future to be changed. Of course in an alternate universe, you would still be whatever it is that you thing has been changed about you.
If time travel ever becomes more than just theory, it would mark the greatest scientific moment in all history. Surely, you must agree with that.
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Trott
Member posted 02 January 2001 12:57
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Mr. O,
You said that there were 7 other time travellers that you knew of who were on various missions from 2036 on your timeline. I am curious have people in 2036 been visited by people from further in the future? One would think that once time travel was possible and widely known that visitors from other time frames would be more likely to be visible and willing to be upfront about their visitation to the period after time travel, A.T.T (after time travel).
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Fast
Member posted 02 January 2001 01:27
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pamela,
it is no longer HIS website...at least i think so.
the last time i checked in was when his page was redirected to CoasttoCoastAM.com.
i think i first got intrested into gibb's work after hearing him on the Art Bell show..

but i remember an interview or something where a friend of his or a sheriff said that the wave rider was a nice story,but it wasnt real.i think thats right.

Fast Out

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 02 January 2001 01:53
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Trott,
I see your brand new here, so I can understand if you don't know the history of what I've said in past posts. Let me just say that yes Time Travel will be this worlds greatest technological breakthrough, when it becomes real (to this timeline that is).
However, unlike you who wishes to see this issue of Time Travel as a scientist in an objective manner.

I choose to see this issue on a human/moral level. Is it ethical to Time Travel? Is it right to change the past with the knowledge one knows now in the future?

You've all seen "Back to the Future 2" where Marty is in the future, and he attempts to take back with him an almanac to place sports bets in the past.

Well, you can see where the moral implication can put us in, if our curiosity to go back and do things in this manner will do to our society? If one person does it, others will want to too.

If others are getting genetically engineered, others will want to too. To keep up at least, since now the rich who can afford it, are this super eugenic species (with intelligence and looks). Will we say then “Survival of the Fittest?”

Where does that leave out normal hard working honest people? Apparently that no longer exists.

Therefore, as you can see, my only beef with Time Travel is that it can be abused. Sure it can benefit us, but I am an Activist trying to get the word out that it's not just glamorous and wonderful as it may sound, and that we should all jump in the band-wagon with it.

Someone needs to look out for humanities best interest in preserving our way of life, and I'm willing to take on that responsibility. Who can say the same?

Sincerely,
J.C.

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Fast
Member posted 02 January 2001 04:14
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every page in every book has 2 sides..
2 sides which are to be viewed and judged..
time travel is just another page in just another book...

Fast Out

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Roel van Houten
Member posted 02 January 2001 16:32
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Hi everyone,
With all due respect, but the story about the "Waverider" sounds pretty ridiculous compared to the story that TimeTravel_0 provided us with.

I don't think timetravel will exist for a couple of decades to come, maybe even centuries. But I strongly believe that timetravel will not be possible without the aid of a machine of somekind.

Nowadays people are said to be using 30% of their brainpower and although people have accomplished many great things, I don't believe the remaining 70% is enough to travel through time. There are myths about monks and priests who were able to levitate by focussing their thoughts, but that's nothing compared to timetravel.

Anyone?

Roel van Houten

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pamela
Member posted 02 January 2001 17:33
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Hi Roel Van Houten,
Is it still raining over there?
You forgot the weather report at the end!
I think time travel already exists.
One thing you have to remember that it doesnt really matter WHEN it was ever created but IF. because with a time machine you can travel to ANY time.
TTO has made me realize alot of different possibilities in time travel.Things I never thought of before I am now thinking on.
New ideas have sprung up. new pieces of the puzzle possibly found.

about the priests and monks...I think that would involve more the will, spirit, and amplified thoughts than just the brain alone.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "Z" machine?

sincerely,
pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 02 January 2001).]

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 02 January 2001 19:52
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I'm sorry but I don't believe the Time Traveler is from the year 2036. Pamela u seem like a smart woman how can you believe that he is a time traveler where there is nothing that he says could prove that he is. You even beleived the guy who called the Art Bell show and it's pretty sure that HE is a fake. The only thing that makes me think that Time Travel is possible was a incident that happened to me in 1995. It was a Saturday and I was living in Manhattan. I had to get up early to move the car from the meter.Standing in the corner of my block looking like he was waiting for the bus was a man that looked exactly like me.It really scared me. I saw him and he saw me. I just took off running (which I regret). Was that me from the future?? Or was that someone that just looked like me? I don't know and I don't think I ever will know
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Fast
Member posted 02 January 2001 21:30
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Juanito,
TT_0 provided us with scanned government documents showing the components to a 2036 General Electric Time Machine..check out the other pages on this thread,and you'll find the url to them...

FastWalker2

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 02 January 2001 21:57
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You mean the photos of the paper that say 2036?? I could make those papers. I made birth certifcate and immigration papers that look more real then those papers. If u believe that those photos then I have a bridge to sell u in Brooklyn want to buy it is really cheap!!!!!
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andera
unregistered posted 03 January 2001 12:30
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can you tell again the link of that papers, which are you talking about, i wanna se it
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pamela
Member posted 03 January 2001 06:31
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Juanito-
hmmm, I don't remember ever posting that I beleived the wave rider was true.
As for timetraveler_0 , I have not posted everything we have discussed.
I have not been able to find a flaw in any of his discussions so far.
he has really opened my understanding of time travel.Things I would have never thought of before.
I will have to say, In some of his thinking he is "ahead of this time."

sincerely,
pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 03 January 2001).]

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Fast
Member posted 03 January 2001 07:52
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Juanito,
when you have a seamless story that you came from 2036 in a General Electric Time machine and brought documents from the year 2036,then ill buy your bridge.
TT_0 could have said bloody NASA made the time machine,why did he choose General Electric?possibly because his story is true..?
and the documents are scanned,and look unedited.they also look photocopied.

so..

FastWalker2

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 03 January 2001 13:47
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I’ve been reading the last few postings with a bit of confusion. I see there is controversy over my “story” that is causing some people to ask themselves if they believe it or not.
For quite a while, I have been stating that not only do I not expect anyone to believe me, it’s irrelevant and in my opinion, quite dangerous. Belief implies that you accept what I say as true and real. Over the internet, this is impossible. In fact, I have stated before, there are many people in 2036 who do not believe in time travel.

As I stated before, I also think that unwavering belief is dangerous. One very disturbing thing I have noticed about your society in general is your blind acceptance of what you are told. Do you really think the news industry doesn’t have an agenda? Do you really think those hamburgers you stuff into your body are safe? Do you really think your government is telling you the truth? What proof do you have of any of that?

What I do want you to do is open your eyes to the events that happening around you that have nothing to do with me. Some of you have been reading for a while now about the war in 2015 and the breakthroughs in particle physics that would be coming soon. Doesn’t the CIA report on 2015 and news on the z-field compression at least support what I’ve been saying a little bit? I just saw another story today about the Russians moving Nuks into the Balkins to thwart any future expansion by NATO. I also haven’t heard anyone take me up on my “information experiment” on the IBM 5100 or check out the information I’ve given you about the UNIX failure in 2038. With all due respect… I find it hard to take some of you seriously.

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andera
unregistered posted 03 January 2001 15:51
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i have read all the 6 pages of this board, and i can see all is about the story of mister tt_0, i only can had 1 conclusion, its AMAZING; but just amazing, i mean the only thing we can do is belive or not, but cmon we are phisycs, we not belive, we KNOW, our knowledge is based on the brain, the belive is based on heart, its important belive in something but not be blind for this, i come to this board(whit another nick) a few months ago and you just talking about ways to travel in time, pure teorical phisics, but now this board seems like belive or not belive, love or not love the mister tt_0.
I am not against the m. tt_0, if he travel or not, for me is his problem, i mean the first time i read the m. tt_0 i think woao!!! a real time traveler!!, but a few seconds later, i was disapointed because i wanna be the man who make the time machine, i wanna be the first time traveler, and this guy come and said i travel in time, i was blue, but then i think may be i or we will be the builders of the time machine, but this only can hapen if we do phisycs, if we do teories, if we do experiments, ni mean, this cant hapen if we only are limited to belive and love or not belive and no love an "apparental time traveler", or if we just talk about "its true or not the time traveler".

In 6 pages of board you just talk about how will be the future, belive or not, our society is bad or not, cmon stop do this questions, the future we will see it in a few years, the society is so bad all of we know that, the war of 2015 will be (if be)for some valid reasons or not valid but we cant do anithing about that, or if we do it will be another line in time, so we never know if we do it or not.

So mi point is stop talk about "its true or not " and lets think about "how can we do a time travel". Just think, which one is the dream of all of us? and the chose betwen talk or think, belive or do it fact.

Sincerily andera

p.s. Answer me, i wanna know the comments of all of you

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TimeMaster 1a
Member posted 03 January 2001 18:19
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TimeTravel_0:
It is not logical that you would post the papers and diagrams and picture accecpt to give credibility to your story. The reality is that you are useing this forum to post your very subject views. You and I both know you are not from the future.It is not that you will not, but you can not post any evidence to the contrary.
However you have done your homework and tell a good story. Useing the Karr black hole as the bases for your time travel drvice is very good, although it will not produce time travel as you claim.

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Curious
unregistered posted 03 January 2001 19:07
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I think the point TT_0 was trying to make is wake up and look around. He really doesn't care if we believe him or not. He is just giving us a wake up call. I don't care if he can time travel or not. I am looking at the bigger picture. Him posting on this board is a small thing. So he can time travel or not. It's not such a big deal. In a world of infinite possibilities, every thing is probable. And what I believe doesn't effect this world at all, only me...........
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Shadow
unregistered posted 03 January 2001 21:11
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TT_O
Its been a long time since anybody has had to worry about converting IBM legacy code into more modern language. I'm not sure even when the 5100 was made, I'm guessing the early to mid '70s. The term geek hadn't even been invented yet. Before 1980 only overworked men with bad hearts ever saw a computer. In short, the supply of 5100 experts is probably too thin to show up on this small board. So wadda we know?

Heck, Colonel Corsoe & Co. would have us believe that the IBM line was copied from a crashed alien sauser.

The 2038 date bug in Unix is no secret. It just runs out of bit space for holding larger date code numbers. I worried a whole lot about the Y2K bug. I got my butt fooled. I lost half of my net worth AND two years of work. Whoopie. LET the friggen thing blow up, maybe somebody ELSE will get a well needed lesson.

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 03 January 2001 21:23
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I hope that you guys can see what I'm talking about. Look at the last post that Time traveler man posted. It's the same B.S.
I wonder if he knows of someone in the future with the initals JLR as he is 2 years old (the same age as our alleged time traveler). All I want to know is a simple fact from the future (other then the wars) like after GW Bush who will be the next President?? I mean if CNN can try to predict why can't our Time traveling friend.
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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 03 January 2001 23:12
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Well, no post in this forum can be complete without having my 2 cents added to it =). As an Activist, I agree with some of what TimeTravel_0 has mentioned. I have also been trying to get people to open their eyes. I have a website for just that purpose.
Please check it out. www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/

However, there is one thing I would like to know. TimeTravel_0 if in fact you have been to the future, what happens to JCS- ME =)? Am I deeply involved in this Time Travel project as well? What of the resistance?

Don't want to brag, but I too have had very real dreams of Time Traveling to the future. Some would seem like days, but be only a matter of hours passed. Other times I have visions and transmissions from the future. That's what one Dr. once said to me. I still experience these Time Distortions, or whatever they are. There pretty trippy.

Anyway's, it would only be natural that this is happening to me for a reason. =) So what do you know, if you have been to the future?

And hey Juanito, I like your critical perspective. Not to critical, and not to gullible, =) I sure could use someone like you in my resistance.

Truly,
Javier C.

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 03 January 2001 23:28
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Javier
Thanks, I try to keep things real. I believe that Time Travel is possible but I don't think TT_0 is a time traveler.

Sure I will like to join your quest for the truth where do I sign up.

Pamela and the other beleivers do u guys honestly believe this guy. Or is it that u want to believe.

I believe in GOD because I want to believe but I never seen GOD.

There is a big difference!!!!!

Juanito

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[Darby]

Juanito
Junior Member posted 03 January 2001 23:40
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BTW
Does anyone know how big an IBM 5100 is??

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DaViper
unregistered posted 04 January 2001 04:41
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Wow!
This is some thread huh! The longest and most debated one I've ever seen on this board.

(I trust everyone had a Happy New Year for the true Millenium.)

And especially want to wish Pamela the best in her continuing pursuits for truth in the next Thousand years.

For rgrunt:

It appears I may have publicly judged you too harshly. And I hereby appologize for anything that came across as a personal attack. Your post above has opened the door to a world of dialog that we may indeed find a way to come together on. You are no longer the faceless, dogmatic spewer of antiquated rhetoric I once thought you to be. (It does seem that this "paradox" issue has taken conversation on this board into directions I never thought possible. But then... God is the ultimate paradox is He/She not?)

Please understand that when you say ... "I do admit that the information I recieved came second hand so I trully cannot vouch for the accuracy." ...is something I suspected all along but can't help myself when it comes to jumping on the particular type of dogma that it represents. No Personal offense was ever intended.

Please also understand that when you say I "...claims that creation is completely proven wrong " ...

... that I DO NOT claim THIS at all. I merely state (without CLAIMING anything at all) that the account of creation as is metaphorically described in the Book Of Genesis in The Bible, first version, is just that. A metaphor. Not a true depiction of actual history in the literal sense.

I'm not disclaiming the existence of God here, or the CONCEPT of Creation per se. Nor am I saying that in so denying, that I am therefore subscriptive to the A-Theistic point of view. On the contrary.

In the true sprit of Paradox, (which this thread's topic is all about), I merely offer the easily verifiable evidence and duplicatable proof that such an occurance as the so-called Biblically depicted "great flood" is in itself a physically impossibility.


It would be a great leap of faith indeed for anyone to PRESUME from this statement that I in any way dispute the existence of God. But also be aware that while I do not refute His existence, I also do not accept it unconditionally. At least based on the words of one anthology that exists from the ancient days of Western European Mythology. Particularly since this Anthology to which I refer (The Bible) never existed in it's present form until the late 15th Century when Guttenburg invented the printing press that brought all these previously unconnected "Books" together. And even then, after much language translation from various sources such as Hebrew, Islamic, Christian, etc.

To place scientific credibility in such a document would be folly on the "wishful thinkers" of the world to say the least.

This is not to say that the document does not have value as a representative example of the moralistic values in any society in folklore, (including our own), but it needs to be studied in the true context of what it is. A historical account of the world as THOSE WHO LIVED AT THAT TIME saw it. The moral lessons contained therin may indeed be timeless, but the science is purly from the point of view of the then ignorant. (No offense to them, they simply didn't know any better.)

So ultimately Mr. Schasteen, please understand that from what I see in your last post, we may indeed not be that far apart on the moralistic or philosophistic level, but at the purely scientific level, well, as Einstein said, "God does not play Dice with the Universe."

And He (if he truly exists), DID NOT flood the entire Earth 6000 years ago, nor did He "create" the Earth in a matter of what we call "six days".

"He" MAY very well have "Created" it, and the rest of the Universe for that matter. I take no issue with this nor do I advocate the possibility either way. I'll leave the possibility of these matters to the likes of Dr. Stephen Hawking and others of his ilk who can present logical arguments that support BOTH points of view far better than my humble ability to elaborate upon.

For specifics though, I've already provided links to a number of sites where raidiometric dating processes can be studied and understood (I'll leave you to chase those down and do the same research I've already done), and hopefully leave you with the understanding that I also meant NO insult to you in any personal way.

After all, "rgrunt" and "DaViper" are just handles anyone can use to sign onto a BBS/Message board anywhere on the net and represent themselves to be anyone they wish to present themselves as.

In the end, it's the words and what one has to say that matter here.

And very little else.

Peace.

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Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 25, 2002 16:24
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Time-travel Paradoxes! (Page 7)


Author Topic: Time-travel Paradoxes!
DaViper
unregistered posted 04 January 2001 05:16
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TT_0:
Actually, I thought it was a pretty good story. I'd say your fiction skills are coming along quite nicely.

juanito:

Bigger than your palm pilot, your laptop, your desktop and even bigger than an IBM 4300 series.

But not as big as my grandfather's old Buick Roadmaster.



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P.Light
unregistered posted 04 January 2001 08:28
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To Juanito,
My friend i know where your coming from...

I've had a ...erm...falling out with T-T-0 in the past as you have no doubt seen if you have read the past messages.

Let me say one thing, He knows what he's talking about.

More than everyone else on this board i might add, aside from perhaps the moderators!!

Or else why would people be asking him so many questions about theories and things wev'e only dreamed about. Perhaps your right, perhaps he is only trying to open our eyes. But do you act on the information he has given us or do you dismiss it as pure fantasy? Open your eyes and think about what he has to say! I did and so did everyone else who post or even read this board

A sidenote... Rgrunt, what happened to your blackhole contraption?

Sincerly,

P. Light

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 04 January 2001 09:06
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Juanito,
I can't say about the others, but your right. I asked him questions I already know the answers to. If he answers them correctly, then he is from the future.
He's not the only one in this board who claims to have Time Traveled =).

Hey you and me lets stick together on this. There seems to be alot of team play action going on here. Alot of people watching each others backs, if you know what I mean.

Someone needs to set them stright . Well talk to you all later.

Truly,
Javier C.

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hello
unregistered posted 04 January 2001 12:12
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The government would have pulled those diagrams off of the web page they are on if they really believed timetraveler_0.
timetraveler_0 would have been traced and located, spied on and eventually his device stolen from the basement.
yep, happened to someone else I knew.
they even posed as the person for awhile.
you never know who you are talking to on the internet.he is right about that.
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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 04 January 2001 13:49
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That's true, even I'm being watched, and I haven't even posted anything of a national security nature .
-J.C.

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Roel van Houten
Member posted 04 January 2001 15:49
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Hi everyone,
Pamela, to respond to your previous post:

yes, we've had some snow over here, but it's raining cats and dogs again as usual..

From our point of view, lets just say "this worldline", timetravel does not yet exist. To put it in other words: timetravel will (probably) exist in the future, but assuming time goes by in chronological order it does not exist yet.

If we take a "non-linear" approach to time, timetravel does indeed already exist. It all just depends on the way you look at things. I guess we're both right in this case.

As for Timetravel_0. I'm very sceptic about the story he has provided us with. But it remains an interesting story nonetheless. It doesn't matter whether we believe it or not. At least he's caused a 6 page thread and he made people think about certain aspects of modern society. It's only logical that someone from the future has no gain in proving that he really is a timetraveler.

So lets just stick to the subject of timetravel instead of proving or disproving the story of Timetravel_0.

As for Juanito and TimeTravelActivist. Listen very carefully, I shall only say this once ;-) Perhaps it's a good idea to start a new thread called "The Resistance" or something similar. That would be a great opportunity to discuss the "danger" of timetravel and recruit new members.

Greetings from rainy Amsterdam, it feels like I'm freezing yet the water that falls from the sky does not )

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Trott
Member posted 04 January 2001 17:31
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The thing that I picked up from Mr. TT_0's recent post is that he seemed to be saying that time travel is not something you believe in or disbelieve. That is not how things work, you must discover and experiment not just take in what others may say. If people just sat around saying I believe it is possible to fly and never went out and tested it then we would never have made aviation possible. Likewise, we can neither definitively accept or deny TT_O's claim of being an actual time traveller until physical and hence experimental proof of time travel is obtained.
My past inquiries of TT_O were merely for my curiousity. I have never accepted or denied his claim. Although, I must admit the easiest and most uncomplicated solution would be that he is not. As far as that wave rider person, his statements on the fax are contrary to our historical line and hence I do not buy his story. I personally do not see how time travel could be possible just using the physical body and mind anyway.
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Fast
Member posted 04 January 2001 19:38
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thats why you work FOR the government...
so they cant steal your work because it is funded by THEM..
there work is usually less fringe science and more proven stuff,and they dont allow errors(error is a kind and benevolent god of inventors..jk)
TT_0,

in the 2036,do they still publish books?
if so,do they still have those Cliff Notes books?the yellow ones,about things like physics and geometry and common time displacement theory and such?
hint hint...

is the government regulating the time machine you used to get here,or are you free to do as you choose?

TimeTravelActivist,
why does everyone of your posts have to include something about IOTM??

FastWalker2

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 04 January 2001 22:38
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Roel van Houten,
You must be new here... Or else you would know.

I have started threads for the purpose of recruiting members into my campaign, how you mentioned I should. Some have gone to 7 pages as well... Might want to look them up.

In addition, to FastWalker2.

I only mentioned my website twice. What are you talking about me mentioning it every time I post? Count them...

Gotta go buy food for my cat , c-ya.

-J.C.

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 05 January 2001 09:15
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TimeTravel_0,
So do you plan on keep avoid answering my questions? You been awfully quiet since I've returned... Time Traveling must keep you very busy huh.

-J.C.

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 05 January 2001 10:53
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Dear Deviper,
No offence taken I appreciate the posting for it taught me a good lesson not to post something that I can not readily anylize with my own senses. I will look up the information and if I find anything that supports either side I will post it at a later date. I will not endorce it til I have done the experiments myself though to ensure accuracy. I also have a great deal of respect for you in that you seem to be a man that truely seeks for the truth and are carefull to accept only the truth. The bible does say that those who seek the truth shall find it so I wish you success in your endeavors to sift out the truth of things and hope you to have a happy new year.
sincerely,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 05 January 2001 13:19
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Dear P-Light,
I appologize for the delay. I am now teaching myself geometry and calculas for I did not have the opportunity to learn these forms of math in high school. I was lucky to get a chance to learn algebra. After I have finished teaching myself these subjects I believe that I will have the knowlege to convert the theory behind the black hole device into a mathematical statement using calculas. Graphic proofs are great but all of the physics journals I have read are written using calculas to represent mathematically whatever measurement is being discussed in that particular journal. As for the device itself in light of my lack of education I went ahead and contracted it's development to a research and development firm by the name of Davison and Associates. The device is to be a generator for sale. But the generator operates on the same theory in that increase in electrical current and voltage is obtained by constricting a parallel probagating e and h field to a smaller given space. I am not aware of whether compressing and electric field or an electric field will power output of a generator but I know that focusing a magnetic field to a smaller area increases the strength of the field in that area like sunlight focused through a convex lense. And I believe one way to increase the electrical output of a generator is to increase the field strength of the magnets being used to generate the electricity. So I cannot see why the device will no produce higher electrical voltages at higher amperage. (all parts are powered by dc current)If one tries to focus a magnetic field that is generated by an alternating current the field will decrease in amperage as the field is constricted on acount that the frequency of the field is increased as the field is twisted up. Imagine a spring, if you will, and let each revolution in the helixical spring determine the frequency. If you twist the sring in the one direction the distance between the spring crests and troughs will decrease as the spring is tightened thus increasing the frequency of the spring. As a ac current frequency increases the ac output decreases. I imagine that dc is different. I could be wrong in my interpritation of the ac theorum I just stated.

sincerely,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 05 January 2001 13:46
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In 2036, community life is a bit different. People are valued and judged based on their contribution and worth. Work is organized around the family and the value of that work is assessed inside of the community. Most communities range in size from 1000 to 4000 people. If a family wanted to move from one community to another or if a son or daughter wanted to move to another community, they must apply and be interviewed by the community leadership council. During this process, the family or individual is evaluated as to whether or not the work or skill they have is required or necessary to that individual community. Once accepted, the family or individual is expected to uphold their end of the work and support the community. If they don’t, the community stops supporting them and they are forced to change their attitude or move away from the community.
The family work we did was picking, sorting and shipping oranges by sailboat up and down the coast of Florida. We were expected to produce a certain amount for the community and a certain amount for other communities as agreed to by our CLC. In exchange, we received power, water, a certain amount of food and other necessities that were produced inside our community.

I see this message board as a small community and I have no other way to value the contributions of others on it other than what my past experiences tell me. I have tried to answer as many questions as I can without being annoying, repetitive or inappropriate… and for some of you entertaining. Under these conditions, I have decided to seek guidance from all of you, the other members of this community, as to whether or not my postings are of any value to the direction of these discussions. If they are getting distracting or repetitive, I will stop and continue to enjoy reading your thoughts and ideas.

((Who receives the Nobel Prize for inventing time travel? Surely, since there is a divergence from your time line such information would be of no consequence to divulge.))

There are a great many people involved with the discovery of time travel. Just as I will not give “stock tips”, I will not divulge their names as that may impact their lives now.

((Timetraveler_0 have you ever heard of the "Waveriders"?))

No, I can’t say that I have although I am in no position to say if it’s true or not.

((What could you surmise, as to what might happen, as a result if you provided us with copies of various news articles in relation to "Technology Reports" published a year in our future, or any "Time" after (Such as in your "Worldline" as you so describe?))

If I had any and I published them, I’m sure they may have a large impact. Unfortunately, I don’t have any with me. Even if I did, I’m sure they would be scrutinized also. Again we get back to the same question. If you were a time traveler, what would you do to establish your credibility?

((You said that there were 7 other time travellers that you knew of who were on various missions from 2036 on your timeline. I am curious have people in 2036 been visited by people from further in the future? One would think that once time travel was possible and widely known that visitors from other time frames would be more likely to be visible and willing to be upfront about their visitation to the period after time travel, A.T.T (after time travel)).

No, I am not aware of time travelers visiting my worldline in 2036. However, that does not mean it can’t or isn’t happening. Also, the possible number of worldlines a time traveler might arrive at would place the chances of them hitting any particular one at very long odds.

((However, there is one thing I would like to know. TimeTravel_0 if in fact you have been to the future, what happens to JCS- ME =)? Am I deeply involved in this Time Travel project as well? What of the resistance?))

I have no idea what happens to you in your future. There was a resistance on my worldline but their goal was to maintain power and control over other people. We killed most of them by 2020.

(Does anyone know how big an IBM 5100 is??)

I would say its about 20” long, 10” high and 30” long.

((I've had a ...erm...falling out with T-T-0 in the past as you have no doubt seen if you have read the past messages.))

I’m not aware we had a falling out. I apologize if you think that’s the case.

((in the 2036,do they still publish books?
if so,do they still have those Cliff Notes books? the yellow ones,about things like physics and geometry and common time displacement theory and such?
hint hint... ))

Yes, books are still published. If I had any cliff notes with me I would let you decide if they should be posted or not.

((is the government regulating the time machine you used to get here, or are you free to do as you choose?))

The displacement machine is not mine but I am free to make certain decisions based on the experiences and information I gather from each worldline. I am expected back but from their perspective, I will only have been gone for a split second.

((So do you plan on keep avoid answering my questions? You been awfully quiet since I've returned... Time Traveling must keep you very busy huh.))

I’m not sure what questions you are referring to. You did ask one question about yourself, right below the link to your website. I am confused why you would think I would know anything about you.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 05 January 2001 15:24
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Thank you rgrunt. Peace and success to you likewise.
trott:

Well said.

I think sometimes poeple confuse "open minded" with "gullible".

Open minded is when you are ready (open) to recieve any information that can be enlightening or even just plain subjective to you. In this, all things are possible.

Except...

Being gullible. This is when you unquestioningly accept something just because someone else says so. One has to do one's own homework to get to real truth.

Gullibility then deteriorates into the worse condition of all. Self imposed ignorance. This is where one accepts as true, that which has ALREADY BEEN PROVEN to not be so. Or continues to believe that something is NOT so when it has been proven to be true. Those who still believe the world is flat fall into this last category. And they are STILL out there.

Maybe TT_O IS a Time Traveller. But his reluctance to offer any proof of such damages his credibility. Saying he "doesn't care" whether he is believed or not is really nothing more than a cop out. And allows him to side-step the issue of proof.

I cannot say for sure whether Time Travel is, or ever WILL be possible. I simply don't know. But I have a certain amount of confidence that TT_O is NOT one.

His story IS creative. But the physics just don't add up.

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 05 January 2001 15:39
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Well that was a pretty interesting picture of the future you painted for us TimeTravel_0. Although, that is just 1 version of events. And your complete disregard of your Time Line will cease to exist now. Telling us this, will without a doubt change all that you described.
If in fact it's true hehe.

Personally, I know already that life will turn into one big collective in the future. Hence my resistance...

Individuality as people in the way we lead our lives, is no longer our choice. Then you know that my resistance will fight for the freedom to destroy oppression.

Further more, my identity in the future would most likely be changed ... Nevertheless, if you have been to the future, you know who I am.

No doubt about that...

-J.C.

[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 05 January 2001).]

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[Darby]

TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 05 January 2001 15:40
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(No Post)...
[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 05 January 2001).]

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observer
unregistered posted 05 January 2001 19:44
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TTO-
we enjoy reading your posts very much.please continue. we enjoy your contributions. You are obviously a very important part of this small "internet community".
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timetravel_1
unregistered posted 06 January 2001 12:45
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TT_0:
I belive you, i dont know why but i belive you, but i think the other guys need a real clue for belive you, so, i think you can take a photo of your clothes and post it, or your credencial, because if you work for the goberment, you need to had a credential of the gob in the future, and of curse you need to have clothes from the future, or you travel nude?

And what about the social system in the future, its so like socialism, only there one thing wrong, on socialism theres no religion, so please tell me, in the future the church stop to steal money, and manipulate people, or how works the structure of the church in the future?

I had just another question, what happen in the future whit mexico and the latinamericans.

Atte: a fan of you, TT_1.

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 16:02
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TT_0
There is an expression that is used here in this "time".

[censored] or get off the pot.

Just start naming historical figures in your "time" or stop saying that you are a time traveler

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 06 January 2001 16:33
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Well, what do we have here ? There seems to be some Latino homiez in da house here... I'm part Hispanic too bro's.
Hey, listen up... As a Time Traveler to the future my self, I have seen the uniforms. I have even put one on. Therefore, if TimeTraveler_0 can offer us a picture of his uniform as proof, I will verify it's legitimacy with the one I wore.

However, I wouldn't count on you actually telling us the truth... I know people, and I can sense when they are telling the truth, and when they are lying.

Isn't that right people? (Those of you who know me, when have I ever been wrong about people?). I told you so, so many times .

Anyway's, if you can get this picture and I know you can't. I would like to establish a real-time chat. We will invite 3 or 5 members to represent each side.

Your side, claiming to have Time Traveled and making a big public notice about it. And me, who will set the record straight and who will verify your story. Let me just let you know right now; this won't be an easy chat for you. There will be no more posts where you can think of what to say and take your time with.

You will be caught in lies either by me, or my side of members.

So, are you up to the challenge? Answer A.S.A.P. by Go or No-Go. However, if your answer is No-Go, please supply a statement saying why.

Got to go for now.

-J.C.

[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 06 January 2001).]

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 16:38
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Javier
If you are really a time travler how is the President after GW Bush?

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timetravel_1
unregistered posted 06 January 2001 17:31
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TimetravelActivist:

I'll go

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Shadow
unregistered posted 06 January 2001 19:12
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To Timetravel Activist;
you've been here longer than TT_O and we are still waiting for YOU to prove that you have ever been to the future. I'm going to the future too, one day at a time. When I get there, I'll STILL be waiting for you to prove it.

Here is a little test for you. What is your opinion of the Montauk material?

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 06 January 2001 19:22
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timetravel_1 whom's side will you be arguing for?
Anyone else?

Juanito, I am not a Time Traveler like TimeTraveler_0 claims to be. I didn't get into any machine from the future or anything like that.

No, my connection to Time and its nature is unique. I've had it since birth. There is no way to truly explain how I know or seen the future. Nevertheless, everyday I'm finding out new things .

And about GW Bush, I don't know what to tell you. Although I have an uncle that looks like him .

-J.C.

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 19:31
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J.C.
Can u predict my future??

Why is the government watching you??

Juanito

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 06 January 2001 19:39
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Shadow,
Have I never explained my self?

Thousands of times, and in the best way I know how.

How many times have I said that the future is a @$#%!* place?

How many times have I said to band Time Travel?

Have you ever seen my website?

It's been there for the longest time, explaining how I feel about Time Travel, and what we as concerned people should do.

I don't need to say I am a Time Traveler like TimeTraveler_0 to tell you what I have seen. In addition, I don't claim to have been from the future how TimeTraveler_0 states he is. I have explained that I have this connection to it, enabling me to see things.

Check my past posts and my website, I don't speak of it directly like TimeTraveler_0 did, but you get the general idea of what I am trying to mean.

Here it is again http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/ also read the information about me page.

Sincerely,
Javier C.

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Time02112
Member posted 06 January 2001 19:51
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TT_0 thanks for the reply RE: sharing future technological reports, or publications...
You have expressed an inability to provide them now, for lack of having any with you, before you arrived in our "Worldline"

Could you please make a note, to remind yourself to bring them with you on your "Next Visit" here?
(Providing there will be another "Visit")

Meanwhile, why not use your memory to paint us a more "Specific" picture of your worldline, by providing us with some more "Detailed" information that would provide to those who may be more skeptical? in the least by accepting this challange (instead of avoiding it) what harm would it possibly bring? if you keep out any information that may not be acceptably permissable in order to prevent any clandestine repercussions of the future outcome of a series of events which are crucial to our future to come, so that they may play out their roles, as they were intended, I can only see that there are still many variable details that you "CAN" Disclose to us that would not be this detrimental, and only "Add" to your Credability.

One good example of such, I would like to ask you to disclose the names of these "Five Presidents" that you mentioned earlier.

*Who:> Who are they?
and who are those involved with breathing life into this supposed NWO, that many people in our current world-line are so afraid of?

*What:> A.)What are their primary, and post secondary functions within the New GVT?

B.) What is the extent of their Authoritive positions of power?

C.) What is our New GVT like, compared to our worldline's current GVT?
(is it anything Like the Dreded NWO as predicted?, or did this dictatorial NWO rise to power as prohecised, and suddenly get defeated?*(was this what you implyed by your earlier comment represented by the nuber of those slain, that attempted to "control" the free citizens?)

*Where:> Where do they reside?

*When:> When do each of them officialy acquire their respective positions of Authority?

Why:> Why did the New GVT suddenly enlist five Presidents?

(Anyone else care to jump on this & add more questions pertaing?)

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Juanito
Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 19:51
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JC
Why is the gov't after u??

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 06 January 2001 19:56
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Juanito,
Slow down high speed … I don't know your future; it's what you want it to be. If you are determined to do something with your life, then you will do it.

How I am determined to do something about Time Travel someday, I know what will be my fate.

Nevertheless, if your looking for a fortune forecast, I'm not the right person to see about that. Maybe not now anyway's .

-J.C.

P.S. How I know I am being watched? You asked me in an e-mail. Let me just say that if you were to spend a day in my shoes you’d see what I mean. I can’t explain it, you have to experience it. A teacup cannot break the same way twice, or so I once thought.

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Trott
Member posted 06 January 2001 23:49
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Assuming time travel is possible. I do not see how one could band it from being used. In fact, how would one even know that it was used? If you buy into the multiple universe intrepretation of quantum mechanics, would not the time traveller simply pop out of existence in our universe never to be seen again? How would it be possible to band time travel in the infinite multitude of parallel universes, since each universe represents one of an infinite albeit different sequence of events/choices? To "fight" against the infinite diversity of existence in all of its infinite combinitations does not seem logical (at least to me that is). And if you do not buy the multiverse idea, then if time travel is to be used it can not be stopped since time travel would only be possible on closed time like curves, i.e. self-fulfilling destinies in a manner of speaking. Personally, I do not even see how it is possible for one to realize that they were in a closed timelike loop much less escape it. For all things would be as they were as they are and as they will be. Actually, a lack of multiple universes seems a little depressing to me. It seems it would imply an unchangeable fate, for whatever actions we take we were destined to and no matter what technologies we may think up would be able to erase the mistakes of our past or change the past course of our existence. And if that is in fact the case, the only real benefit time travel would have is for scientific and historical purposes. Unless, you were killed by a time traveller from the future but if that happens you need not worry because it was suppose to happen!
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Lara
unregistered posted 07 January 2001 01:15
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I like your thinking Trott.
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DaViper
unregistered posted 07 January 2001 07:06
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I also like your thinking trott. The idea of "banning" Time Travel has already been dealt with in fiction. I can't remember the author, but it appeared in one of the Hugo Annual Anthologies.
The premise is, if you have a machine that can travel in time, you can just as easily use it to simply "see" into the future (or past) without having to actually travel there.

You can set it to whatever period you like. 1 million years from now. Or 100. Or even 1/10th of a second from now.

Why would you choose this latter setting? Why, to see into your neighboor's bedroom of course. 1/10th of a second into the future is virtually like being there now.

This is why it was banned.



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Fast
Member posted 07 January 2001 13:14
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DaViper,
i wasnt aware that time travel had been banned..

Trott,
if they wanted to ban time travel,"they" could kill you off when you returned..

TTA,

i remember some time ago on the artbell show,some woman claimed to be a "born time traveler".She said she would occasionally slip in and out of other time lines.she said she always returned to where she left off in our time.
is this the way it is with you?

FastWalker2

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Roel van Houten
Member posted 07 January 2001 16:02
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Hi people,
I agree with Trott here... Banning time-travel (if time-travel is possible in the first place) seems virtually impossible.

However I find it very disturbing that people would want to ban time-travel. That's like trying to stop the invention of computertechnology. Time-travel may prove to be very useful in the future.

TimeTravelActivist: You are right, I haven't been around long enough to know what you're all about. However, after reading your website I decided that your story is just as trustworthy as Timetravel_0s'story, but it lacks evidence. Yet you want him to prove that he's a timetraveler. Don't you think that's a little bit unfair?

Greetings from rainy Amsterdam

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[Darby]

TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 07 January 2001 17:20
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Roel van Houten
How is it unfair? He says he can prove it, he has the evidence necessary to.
What do I have? Just my own experiences as proof. If anything, it's unfair to me. I have nothing to bring out in the open.

Fast,
I'd like to hear this news broadcast. Sounds like something I might be experiencing. Once when I was 7, I told my sister, Abraham Lincoln wasn't supposed to have been killed. Ever since then, she still thinks I'm a bit crazy . Go fig…

-J.C.

P.S. Baning Time Travel to exploit the past is what I meant. You people took me to literal, everybody knows that that’s what I always mean by baning it …

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Fast
Member posted 07 January 2001 21:36
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TTA,
she said that she had woken up in other times,and came back with bruises that she didnt know where she got..

ever since Art Bell quit the show,they've stopped holding his Streamed Audio Shows,so you'll probably have to look around..or call Art.

FastWalker2

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P.Light
unregistered posted 07 January 2001 23:53
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To T-T-A
Im in though i will have to decide "For" or "Against" i shall message you when i have an answer.

Sidenote No.2-----Gullible or Open minded?

Makeing a long story short:--- OPEN MINDED
(Take in the information given,opinions of others,your own opinion, throw in a few theories, Quotes and more information, and go from there!) Naturally there is more to that but the basics are there. Its all about the scientifics. Who would have thought that we could clone animals? Whats to stop us Cloning people?(As you may have heard)

P.Light

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[email protected]
unregistered posted 08 January 2001 21:14
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Good evening, morning , or afternoon everybody,
For a year or two I have started to pay attention to a phenomenon that most people including myself had noticed but taken for granted. The phenomenon is that some days appear to be longer then others. I cannot count the number of times that I felt it was 5:30 pm in the afternoon then go to check the clock and notice that it is only 2:00 pm, merely an hour after I had last checked. Also, I cannot count the number of times that I have thought that it was 2:00 pm in the afternoon and go to check the clock only to find out that it is 5:30 pm. One or two years ago I began to suspect that time itself was indeed fluctuating. So on days that felt longer I asked others if the day was going by fast to them. To my surprize the answer was unanimous. Everyone also felt that the day was going by slower then usual, too. I was looking at an astronomy book last week and noted that space-time is expanding. At the begining of the universe the temperatures of the universe was extremely high and decreased as space expanded. Now I questioned whether there would be any difference if the actual size of the universe were getting bigger as the universe expanded keeping space uniform in density or whether the size of the uniform were fixed and the addition of new space-time resulted in an everincreasing space-time density. I reasoned that the results would be the same for energy occupies space. If the quantity of energy is kept constant and more and more space is crammed into the quantity energy ones first intuition is to assume that the energy per unit volume will increase as a result of the increased compression of space. But this is wrong in fact the energy per unit volume will decrease as a result of compressed space. The reason is that when one compresses a greater quantity of space-time into a constant quantity of energy the energy occupies a greater volume of space. As energy occupies more space the density of the energy decreases as a result of expansion of the energy which is defined as energy occupying greater volumes of space. Now If mass occupies a greater quantity of energy: the energy(that is not mass) will expand and decrease in density. Also energy is generated by friction as the mass is crushed to a smaller volume. This extra energy is neglected in the former statement in that it is the free energy in the form of heat/light that we are interested in not the energy created by the crushing of the mass nor the energy added by the exertion of kenetic force to crush the mass to a smaller volume. As mass increases the energy expands. As energy increases mass expands decreasing in density which is the principle behind the function of hot air baloons. As space increases exponentially and as the number of points increases exponentially the density of space is increased. As the density of space is increased the temperature of space is decreased as the constant thermal energy constant occupies more space. If space increased from all pionts no energy will be created by friction since no space is forced to move into tighter quantities on acount that the number of points is increased symetrically to the increase in volume of space. Now as energy is increased per unit volume time becomes accelerated for that volume as is manifested in a heated object as the molecules of a heated object is sped up relative molecules in cooler masses outside that object.

Edwin G. Schasteen

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[email protected]
unregistered posted 08 January 2001 21:26
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I noticed last week that time was dragging nearly taking up nearly twice the time then normal for a given day. I also noticed that it was sunny and the humidity level was low and thermal properties high. Today is monday and I and the rest of the people I worked with noticed that the day went by dramatically faster then normal...taking up nearly a quarter the time for a day then any given day last week took. I also noticed that there was a large increase in humidity and it even rained today harder then it had in the whole year. As temperature within water decreases within water the molecules slow down and time also slows down for that object on acount that time is a measurement of a number of events accurring per given instant multiplied by the velocity of those events squared. (If those events have a velocity of light) and the number of events accuring per given instant multiplied by the velocity of events.(if the velocity is subluminal) I could be wrong in that time may be the number of events times the square of the velocity regardless of the velocity with respect to the velocity of light.) So as water increased in the atmosphere the energy perunit volume expanded by occupying the water molecules in our area resulting in a decrease in the velocity at which time traveled within our given region which is why my day went much faster today.
sincerely,
Edwin G. Schasteen

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WntUlikeToknow
unregistered posted 08 January 2001 23:12
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E.G.S
Do you realize that the english language lies mortally wounded at the feet of your previous two posts?

Ok, so time is subjective. Scientists disagree.

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Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 25, 2002 16:26
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Time-travel Paradoxes! (Page 8)


Author Topic: Time-travel Paradoxes!
Time02112
Member posted 09 January 2001 05:42
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BTW TT_0
Care to elaborate any further info on the "Other" Time~Travelers from "Your" World-Line"???
*What are the other TT's worldline destinations, and missions?

*Are any of them, besides yourself, on our current worldline that you are aware of?

*Are you in contact by some special means with any other TT's? (if so, How is this done?)

*How is it possible to send a message through Time?

(Please Review my earlier Questions)

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 09 January 2001 09:28
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((Could you please make a note, to remind yourself to bring them with you on your "Next Visit" here?))
I will not be returning to this worldline.

((Meanwhile, why not use your memory to paint us a more "Specific" picture of your worldline, by providing us with some more "Detailed" information that would provide to those who may be more skeptical?))

I think skepticism is a good thing and no one should lose it.

((by accepting this challange (instead of avoiding it) what harm would it possibly bring?))

I’m not sure what “challenge” you are referring to. If you mean the live chat, I have no problem with that. I do that quite often on other boards. However, I fear I have very few bread and circuses left and I fear I am becoming quite boring. Also, I’m not sure I fully understand the nature of the challenge.
http://communities.msn.com/THETIMETRAVELCOMMUNITY

((if you keep out any information that may not be acceptably permissable in order to prevent any clandestine repercussions of the future outcome of a series of events which are crucial to our future to come, so that they may play out their roles, as they were intended, I can only see that there are still many variable details that you "CAN" Disclose to us that would not be this detrimental, and only "Add" to your Credability. ))

Again, I do not seek to add to my credibility. There is no point to it. Actually, by providing information that was usefull, I would be adding to your collective fear that I am real. In that case, this cycle we are in concerning “truth” only spirals and gets worse.

((One good example of such, I would like to ask you to disclose the names of these "Five Presidents" that you mentioned earlier.))

Over the past few postings, I have tried to describe the limits of what I will talk about and why. Here is a short recap list. In future postings, I will place the following number next to each question as to why I will not discuss it.

1. I will not disclose any information that will cause someone to personally gain by its knowledge. This means no stock or sports tips.

2. I will not disclose any detailed information that would allow someone to avoid death by probability. This means no earthquake or bombing information.

3. I will not disclose any information that may compromise any future actions by individual people or threaten their family and well being.

((*Who:> Who are they?…)) --------- 3

((…and who are those involved with breathing life into this supposed NWO, that many people in our current world-line are so afraid of?))

On my worldline, we are no longer afraid of the “NWO”. Are you afraid of Nazis?

((*What:> A.)What are their primary, and post secondary functions within the New GVT?))

The reason the job of President was split into an office of 5 has 4 main reasons. With 5, foreign policy is more consistent, power shifting between parties has less of an impact on the overall government, individual strengths between presidents add to the strength of the overall office, and one president is elected for each major area in the United States.

((B.) What is the extent of their Authoritive positions of power?))

The office of President is far more diluted and decentralized than it is here. The powers of the national government are more defined and reside more at the county and state level.

((C.) What is our New GVT like, compared to our worldline's current GVT?))

I think the new government is good. However, since the concept of nationally subsidized welfare is gone, most people here may not appreciate it.

((*Where:> Where do they reside?))

The new US capitol is in Omaha Nebraska.

((*When:> When do each of them officialy acquire their respective positions of Authority?))

The voting for individual candidates is on a rotating schedule.

((*What are the other TT's worldline destinations, and missions?))

I am not aware of the details of other missions. Of the seven, three had already left before I did. I suspect they are on similar missions.

((*Are any of them, besides yourself, on our current worldline that you are aware of?))

No, the chances of that are very slim.

((*Are you in contact by some special means with any other TT's? (if so, How is this done?))

No, although I would suspect that is not impossible I have no idea how you would do that.

((*How is it possible to send a message through Time?))

Unless the information physically travels with the person, not that I'm aware of.

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 09 January 2001 11:01
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I appologize,
I meant to say that time was accelerated and the energy per unit volume lower at our respective position as a result of the increased density of air as a result of increased humidity. I donnot mean to say that time actually slows down but sequence of events are accelerated outside the reqion of higher humidity with respect to those events within the region of higher humidity as a result of the area of higher humidity having a lower energy density then the region of lower humidity. This is indeed counter intuitive and requires a unique perspective of the model to totally understand. Most scientist would agree that higher energy densities occupy masses of higher density. This is because the masses of higher density will have atoms with more electrons and protons enabling higher angles of energy deflection within the mass prolonging the period of time required for the free propagation energies to permiate through the solid medium. When I speak of eneries I am refering to the electro-magnetic spectrum. I would like to appologize for butchering the english language in my last two postings, but I was on a timer and did not have time to hit the 'spell check' button. In short, I really do wander if there is a sort of time dialation within the atmosphere caused by the fluctuating levels of temperature and humidity. Can anyone coment? I was also realizing that by compressing energy to a smaller volume of space that space would likewise expand taking on lesser density even without having to stretch at all. This would mean that the total volume density of a volume of space is defined mathematically as S=1/e^2 where S is the density of space and e is the density of energy. (a side note to Plight: this is part of the mathematical model for the device in that as the radius of the magnetic field decreases to zero at 180 degrees torque: the energy density of the field increases to infinity as the space-time density decreases to zero. Beyond 180 degrees torque the energy density of space space-time aquires a negative density according to the equation S=1/e^2 where e^2 rises above infinity(infinity not being true infinity but a convenient label for the unknown limit value of e^2.)and the corresponding S value takes on a negative value.

sincerely,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 09 January 2001 11:03
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I appologize,
I meant to say that time was accelerated and the energy per unit volume lower at our respective position as a result of the increased density of air as a result of increased humidity. I donnot mean to say that time actually slows down but sequence of events are accelerated outside the reqion of higher humidity with respect to those events within the region of higher humidity as a result of the area of higher humidity having a lower energy density then the region of lower humidity. This is indeed counter intuitive and requires a unique perspective of the model to totally understand. Most scientist would agree that higher energy densities occupy masses of higher density. This is because the masses of higher density will have atoms with more electrons and protons enabling higher angles of energy deflection within the mass prolonging the period of time required for the free propagation energies to permiate through the solid medium. When I speak of eneries I am refering to the electro-magnetic spectrum. I would like to appologize for butchering the english language in my last two postings, but I was on a timer and did not have time to hit the 'spell check' button. In short, I really do wander if there is a sort of time dialation within the atmosphere caused by the fluctuating levels of temperature and humidity. Can anyone coment? I was also realizing that by compressing energy to a smaller volume of space that space would likewise expand taking on lesser density even without having to stretch at all. This would mean that the total volume density of a volume of space is defined mathematically as S=1/e^2 where S is the density of space and e is the density of energy. (a side note to Plight: this is part of the mathematical model for the device in that as the radius of the magnetic field decreases to zero at 180 degrees torque: the energy density of the field increases to infinity as the space-time density decreases to zero. Beyond 180 degrees torque the energy density of space space-time aquires a negative density according to the equation S=1/e^2 where e^2 rises above infinity(infinity not being true infinity but a convenient label for the unknown limit value of e^2.)and the corresponding S value takes on a negative value.

sincerely,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 09 January 2001 11:19
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It sounds more like your backing out TT_0.
Why not answer my posts directly and on the same week as I posted them?

You sound fearful...

You say you cannot disclose information that may threaten to change people in this worldline personally. Though you have no idea how much you have changed people already with your big mouth.

Let me ask you something... Let's assume for a minute that you are a Time Traveler. Tell me, what is the policy when encountering an unknown variable?

You came into this discussion board for reasons that only you would know. To accomplish something that you thought would benefit us? Or to relinquish some make believe fantasy you had?

Who knows...?

But hey, don't get me wrong, I used to play Cops and Robbers too. Super heros are cool . But when you came here, you didn't come here as a call to save humanity... did you? No, there was something else wasn't there?

Well, it sounds to me that your stay here is numbered. I can only imagine what peril this will bring upon you once you get back.

I can only say, thanks. You've restored my will to keep up my fight to stop people like you messing up the TimeLine.

And oh, that unknown variable, it's me. You didn't plan on encountering resistance. Especially a TimeTravelActivist. Hey this sounds more like something that would happen at the end of a Scobby Do cartoon . "You rotton kids..."

I suggest you don't underestimate the past and think you can waltz in here assuming nothing can go wrong. You may be the Traveler, but I'm a native to this land. Take a lesson from history, and just respect people's domain.

That's assuming that you are a Time Traveler. But personally I think your just playing into people's fascination with TimeTravel. Why else would you be here, in a TimeTravel discussion Forum, claiming to be a TimeTraveler? You tell people what they want to hear, of course there going to believe you. You only keep them guessing and their fantasy going.

I gotta go, but you just think about doing that again in another message board, you can expect the same results. Someone out there, is a TimeTravelActivist just like me, ready to speak out. Remember that...

-Javier C.

[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 09 January 2001).]

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[Darby]

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 09 January 2001 12:24
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To: TimeTravelActivist
I apologize for being unable to respond faster. I looked back and couldn’t find any questions but I may be mistaken.

I also see that you seem to have a great deal of anger directed at me. If you knew where I was and how to get the distortion unit, what would you do? What judgment and punishment should be passed upon me?

On this and many other discussion boards are people who are genuinely interested in and hoping to experience or discover time travel. What punishment would you apply to them if the succeed? I see that you too have had time travel experience. What punishment do you deserve?

When time travel was discovered, there were many people who were against its development. However, once the true nature of time was realized, the resistance faded. Even if one worldline was able to ban, kill and stop all time travel, it will continue on another.

However, the corollary is also true. Take heart, on some worldline, you have succeeded and all time travelers are dead by the hand of your followers and thinking or talking about it is a crime.

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 09 January 2001 12:25
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To: TimeTravelActivist
I apologize for being unable to respond faster. I looked back and couldn’t find any questions but I may be mistaken.

I also see that you seem to have a great deal of anger directed at me. If you knew where I was and how to get the distortion unit, what would you do? What judgment and punishment should be passed upon me?

On this and many other discussion boards are people who are genuinely interested in and hoping to experience or discover time travel. What punishment would you apply to them if the succeed? I see that you too have had time travel experience. What punishment do you deserve?

When time travel was discovered, there were many people who were against its development. However, once the true nature of time was realized, the resistance faded. Even if one worldline was able to ban, kill and stop all time travel, it will continue on another.

However, the corollary is also true. Take heart, on some worldline, you have succeeded and all time travelers are dead by the hand of your followers and thinking or talking about it is a crime.

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 09 January 2001 15:47
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TT_0,
You still didn't answer my questions. Instead you went off the subject, and attempted to blame me for something I have no control over.

Let's set the record straight here. If TimeTravel is used wisely, ethically, and with intentions that don't allow for an advantage in which ever side is using it. Then I am fine with it.

But, if it is used to go back and change events in favor of a world governmets hidden agenda, then yes I would like them to be punished. How would you like to be exploited? Who likes being used...?

So in retro-pects, I sense you have anger in me, for having morals and a sense of ethics on this issue of Time Travel. I don't want this ability to be used by eager selfish people who want to play God with life.

Excuse me, but I may be a bit old fashion, but traditions and ways of life are things to hold on to. Sure, advancement of the human race is a good ideal to have as well, but not through the means of Time Travel.

So in conclusion, I still await your answers to my questions. What do you have to lose that you haven't already messed up already.

I mean no disrespect, but you don't seem to have the wisdom that I would expect someone from an advanced future would have. Your ideals are to liberal, much like in the 70's where things were all about Sex, drugs and free love. Nasty...

No, The worldline you described sounds defeated, desperate, will accept everything new without question.

You sound the same exact way. Reading over your last post I couldn't help but feel that. If you are an example of what people in the future feel about life, if you per-se are like a representative of that TimeLine. I'll tell you what, that TimeLine, that world sucks.

That's all for now, I gotta get back to work.

Sincerely,
Javier C.

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pamela
Member posted 09 January 2001 19:45
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Hi everybody. Im back.
getting use to my new computer system.
I was going to post something here and reference it to a previous post but for some reason those two postings have disappeared and I have been over and over pages 5,6,7,and 8 and cannot find it at all.

It was a posting by TTO replying to ,I believe ,Trott. he made a cryptic message to him asking him if he ever heard the "Princeton string quartet play." and trott responded back that he knew who the scientists were in the Princeton string quartet. I cannot find these two interesting postings at all. Does anyone know where they are? The only one that can delete postings completely are the moderators.MOP,DYMENZION did you delete them? Trott and TTO are not even registered to edit their postings.
My question is WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE POSTINGS???????????????????????????????

Anyway I cannot refer back to them now so I will just tell you one of CERN'S employees has recommended to me to read "QED" the strange theory of light and matter. by Richard P. Feynman. I was hoping it was not a big book when I got the book, at the top of it, in purple and white were these words:

PRINCETON SCIENCE LIBRARY

(Princeton, New Jersey
Princeton University press)

anyway I am curious about the missing postings. TTO take a look back...do you know what happened to it? if so write me.maybe I am just overlooking it.although I checked over those pages 4 times!
thanks.
pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 16 January 2001).]

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Time02112
Member posted 09 January 2001 22:37
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I too have made referrence to this (QED) Book, matter of fact I just lent it out of the TAP-TEN Library to Gary Schasteen on his last visit to my house!
I am suprised that this was overlooked?
Oh well, I am also a very talented musician.

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pamela
Member posted 10 January 2001 12:03
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I found it, it was in the parallel universe thread. I knew i had read it.
TTO:
"You’re a physics student, have you ever heard the Princeton String Quartet play?"

TROTT:
"Mr. TT_0,
I am familiar with the Princeton String Quartet. They are physicist who are working on string theory at the Advanced Institute of Physics at Princeton University in New Jersey."

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 10 January 2001).]

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 10 January 2001 01:13
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E(8) x E(8)?
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rgrunt
unregistered posted 10 January 2001 15:27
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(E8)x(E8)=? S=1/E^2
E^2*64,
E^2=1/64
S=1/64
S^1/2=((1/3)/8))
1=.999...n
1^1/2=.333...n,1 and -1.
If E is energy density and S is Space-time fabric density.

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Trott
Member posted 10 January 2001 21:08
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E(8)x E(8) = SuperGravity
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Trott
Member posted 10 January 2001 21:14
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Mr. TT_0,
You mentioned a divergence from time lines. How is it possible to measure such a divergence? I would assume that it would be impossible to calculate how causes of one single event would propagte into the future. Does not chaos theory make such determinations impossible? Even if I gave you the exact position and velocity of all objects in the universe (which is impossible(I can not even give you the exact position and velocity of a single object due to the Heisenberg Uncertainity Principle)) you could not tell me what the future holds. Of course this results from the fact that the objects do not represent individual closed systems but in fact can interact.

P.S.
You said 6 curled up dimensions. The current theory suggests that there should be at least 7 curled up dimensions. It was discovered by Ed Witten that if you added an additional dimension that the 5 slightly different versions of string theory would combine into a single theory, which is often called M-theory.

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 10 January 2001 23:10
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((You mentioned a divergence from time lines. How is it possible to measure such a divergence?))
The measurement for worldline divergence is an observation variable isolated to the distortion unit. An effective analogy would be a “gravity radar”. The unit’s sensors take a “snapshot” of the local gravity around the unit before a flight. During travel, this baseline is periodically checked to make sure there are no major changes in the environment that would cause a catastrophic mass failure (brick wall appearing from nowhere). The percentage of VGL divergence from one worldline to another is a calculated guess by the three computers that control the unit based on its starting point. It is useless in describing characteristics of individual worldlines.

There is a bit of folklore about the first distortion driver who reaches a destination with a zero divergence. This would mean they had traveled on a spacelike trip to their own worldline of origin. This paradox is quite possible although highly unlikely. I wonder if anyone out there can take current string theory and make that one work on paper?

((You said 6 curled up dimensions. The current theory suggests that there should be at least 7 curled up dimensions.))

I may be mistaken but I thought it was pretty well established now that (N -10) was on track.

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TimeMaster 1a
Member posted 11 January 2001 02:46
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What is a WORLDLINE?
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DaViper
unregistered posted 11 January 2001 03:58
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Direct quote from the Home Page of this Board:
"The Time Travel Institute, although entirely fictional, still respects your privacy."

(Smile)

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 11 January 2001 05:03
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TT_0,
I take it you have no further comments or intentions of answering my last post?

Considering what answering may undermine, I can respect you sudden silence.

Anymore dialogue between you and me and I could very well end up discrediting your claims of being a Time Traveler.

Or on the other hand, may very well end up supporting my point about Time Travelers intentions.

Either way, if you wish to have a real dialogue, and meet my challenge, I still await your answer. In addition, don't answer what and when is convenient for you. There have been a few past posts requesting that you supply answers to. And you have only come up with what seems to be something that is just convenient enough for someone to quickly study in a book and post as your own knowledge.

So enough stalling…

Have a nice day,

Javier C.

P.S. Here’s another one you can try answering for me . I been meaning to ask you, what is your fascination with posting “kill” as your futures means of punishment? This is the 2nd time you’d mentioned it. Don’t you have a criminal justice system in the future anymore? Or is “killing” just your thing?

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 11 January 2001 09:04
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I must admit TTA, you have succeeded in confusing me. The more I read your postings, the more I question my understanding and local use of social interaction, courtesy and logic. However, I also believe that all viewpoints have some inherent value even if it’s not apparent.
((I take it you have no further comments or intentions of answering my last post?))

I took a look at your last posting and didn’t see any questions. However, I now realize that I may be mistaken in assuming much of what you wrote was rhetorical. In may be helpful if you add some indication that you are asking a question you wish someone to comment on.

((However, there is one thing I would like to know. TimeTravel_0 if in fact you have been to the future, what happens to JCS- ME =)? Am I deeply involved in this Time Travel project as well? What of the resistance?))

This is the only question I found from your postings that you could be referring to. Again, I have no knowledge of you in any possible future nor would I comment on it if I did. As far as the photograph of me in a uniform, I’m not sure what that would prove even if I had one.

((Anymore dialogue between you and me and I could very well end up discrediting your claims of being a Time Traveler.))

I do not seek credit for anything. The most I hope for (for the most part) is to be at least interesting and engaging.

((Either way, if you wish to have a real dialogue, and meet my challenge, I still await your answer.))

Perhaps I was unclear before. I did provide the web link earlier that does have a chat room set up for time travel. My schedule is a bit more flexible right now at least for the next week or so. Please take a look and let me know when you will be there (open to anyone of course). Since there really is nothing to be gained or lost, I look at this not as a challenge but more of an opportunity to get to know everyone better.

((In addition, don't answer what and when is convenient for you. There have been a few past posts requesting that you supply answers to. And you have only come up with what seems to be something that is just convenient enough for someone to quickly study in a book and post as your own knowledge.))

I’m not sure what you mean by that. In earlier postings, I have stated that I’m trying to avoid repeating myself and frankly there are some items that are just over my head or that I have no knowledge of. It is curious that you feel knowledge can be something owned or somehow that becomes less worthwhile if it’s passed on.

((P.S. Here’s another one you can try answering for me . I been meaning to ask you, what is your fascination with posting “kill” as your futures means of punishment? This is the 2nd time you’d mentioned it. Don’t you have a criminal justice system in the future anymore? Or is “killing” just your thing?))

Perhaps you could take the dialogue in question and post it with your question. However, if I understand you, you’re asking about death on my worldline. Yes, it is more a part of our lives than it is yours (at least for now) and capitol punishment is a reality.

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Fast
Member posted 11 January 2001 10:41
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TT_0,
why would you travel back to our time looking for a UNIX Bug Fix when the people in your time could simply try to fix it themselves??

what will you be using UNIX for,BTW?

In the future,are the overall temperatures cooler or hotter than they are here and now?

in an earlier post,you said Skeptisism isnt a bad thing,but you seem to back down to TTA and answer few if any of his questions..Why?

FastWalker2

[This message has been edited by Fast (edited 11 January 2001).]

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 11 January 2001 11:35
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Uhh ya =)... Good point there.
Gotta get to work, more later.

-Javier C.

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 11 January 2001 11:49
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I don't believe I ever said I came back looking for a UNIX bug fix. I came back for a computer system. Don't you find UNIX usefull now?
Temprature is about the same although there were anomalies after the war.

Fast... if you are able to translate exactly what the questions are, I would be happy to try and answer.

Just curious....what does everyone think of "IT"? (ginger)

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Buzz
unregistered posted 11 January 2001 11:55
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I have some questions for Time traveler_0,
I see you take things from this world to bring back to your own world. books, computers what have ya. as well as probably the other TT do as well.
Do you pay for those items? or do you just "steal" them?
what do you pay with if you pay?
If you dont pay how is it justified to steal from another world?
could not a TT (time traveler)basically take whatever they wanted from any time?
for example: They would have knowledge of when a shipment of gold was being transported by truck and they could go in and attack the truck and steal all the gold. which would be good for any country or time and do what ever he wanted with it.
They could set themselves up as a King in ancient Egypt and rule the world at the time.
They will have all the power and all the money they could ever want.on this world as well as on others.
what stops you from doing this as well?
Are they careful who they pick to time travel? do you have to take psychological tests before you are chosen?
what attributes should a time traveler have in your opinion?
What are some things they look for when they chose someone for a mission?
If they pick a bad seed by mistake and send them time traveling and that person does harm is there anyway they can go after that person? I am curious about all of this.
thankyou in advance for answering my questions.

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Trott
Member posted 11 January 2001 12:54
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Interesting, if you are from the future, you could tell us just exactly what IT is. Since no one will know for sure until probably 2002 according to news reports. The picture that I saw on ABCNEWs.com of what they thing IT is did not seem to impressive.
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TimeMaster 1a
Member posted 11 January 2001 13:45
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TimeTravel_0:
Since you can travel from Worldline to Worldline perhaps you can tell me what a worldline is?

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Fast
Member posted 11 January 2001 14:19
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TT_0,
there was only one question and you answered it.
if one looks over the temperature charts from the past back to when they first started making them,there is a pattern.
every hundred years or so there is a 10 year period of higher and lower than normal temperatures.after these 10 years,the temperature levels out.

I read somewhere we were at the end of those 10 years,so wouldnt that mean that in your time the temperatures would be not as extreme?

also,what exactly is IT?

FastWalker2

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 11 January 2001 15:29
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Buzz,
It's no use, he won't answer your question about Time Travelers ethics. Cause he's got none.

I tried having him to comment on it, yet he hasn't.

After all, he comes from a world where there is capital punishment. The ends justify the means for Time Travelers, as I always been saying.

-J.C.

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 11 January 2001 15:31
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Buzz,
It's no use, he won't answer your question about Time Travelers ethics. Cause he's got none.

I tried having him to comment on it, yet he hasn't.

After all, he comes from a world where there is capital punishment. The ends justify the means for Time Travelers, as I always been saying.

-J.C.

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Fast
Member posted 11 January 2001 16:51
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didnt TT_0 say in a previous post that we were looked down on by future generations,
if he is from a "parellel timeline",how would he know this??
perhaps TT_0 really is a fraud?

FastWalker2

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Fast
Member posted 11 January 2001 16:56
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i got an error from the board and tried to resubmit the message,and it popped up in repeat..
FastWalker2

[This message has been edited by Fast (edited 11 January 2001).]

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Fast
Member posted 11 January 2001 16:57
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another repeat post..

[This message has been edited by Fast (edited 11 January 2001).]

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 11 January 2001 19:38
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I was considering all the pictures that were submitted of UFO'S on all the different TV programs. It seems that very few people are likely to believe in something that is far more believable then time travel. Not that I am a skeptic of time travel for if I were I would not be trying to provide the method and energy source to enable that and other feats. But most would only beleive in UFO's if one were to land in their back yard and even then most would question their own sanity before proclaiming the obvious. What possible evidence can be produced over the internet to convince even a minute few that the time travel has accured? I would say that collective seeing on a constant basis such that sightings become as routine as eating toast for breakfast before all and few would be convinced. I recall that TT-0 stated that even on his world line most of the population do not believe in time travel. I would say how is a time travelor going to convince a group of people from our own generation that time travel has accured when the same feat in his/or her own time line would take quite an amazing feat. I believe that to even consider the possibility of time travel takes a person of faith. And it takes a person who choses to believe in time travel to truely traverse the necesary intellectial and economical barriers to acomplish that goal. I was considering using the superluminal waveguide where microwaves are forced through an iron bar such that the group velocity is greater then light as resonance to enable the iron bar to less virtually conduct the tachyons from my source by decreasing the density of space-time that seperates the tachyon source from the subluminal energy source and thus correcting the space and time dialation of the superluminal and subluminal entities within the iron antena. This will decrease the density seperating the subluminal energies from the superluminal energies and increase the magnitude of the tavchyon field permiating our iron antena. (please forgive any mispellings I am in quite a hurry). This is all just an extra I believe that the above is not necesary but will serve as maybe a tuner or rectifier. (I hope I am using these terms right). By increasing the density of a parallel propagating e and h field to infinity by generating a double phase field and bringing them in phase within a region; then creating a pressure on the field by running a conducter through the field of infinite density will result in the generation of subluminal negative energy. That is a positronic output. By introducing the superluminal mircrowaves one will conduct the tachyons at a higher probability rate as the fields increase in density to infinity--at which time the conduction of tachyons will increase in probability-which is amplitude-to an infinite amplitude.
sincerely,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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DaViper
unregistered posted 12 January 2001 01:30
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Buzz:
Very good.

It's like the old joke from 2 or three years ago regarding why "Star Trek" will never be a reality.

1. The transporter - All ya gotta do is transport to the Met Museum of Modern Art in NYC, steal all the big $$$ paintings, and retire. Nothing you ever own will ever be safe again once the transporter is invented. This works just as well for TT-O's methods as well.

2. The "Holodeck" will be the last invention of Man. Think about it.

So why wouldn't Time Travel? Human nature. Ever meet anyone who didn't wanna be somewhere/when else?

(Smile).

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huh?
unregistered posted 12 January 2001 12:00
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I have been to the TIME TRAVEL COMMUNITY that time traveler_0 mentioned on the 9th but it has not been up for two days. everytime you go there now it says "Hmmm we can't find that page."
what happened to it?
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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 12 January 2001 19:44
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rgrunt,
I'm just curious about something. You seem to be TT_0 biggest supporter. How old are you by way? Cause it sounds as if he's your role model or something .

-J.C.

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Shadow
unregistered posted 12 January 2001 21:24
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TT_O
(Just curious... what do you think of IT (GInger) )

We ain't supposed to know yet. But I do sincerely thank them for adding an element of suspense to my life.

I've spent the last 12 years learning to cope with some of the most virulent, malignant, and chronic uncertainties known to man. When somebody adds one more to the pile I just burst out with giggles.

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Fast
Member posted 12 January 2001 22:37
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rgrunt
your always posting some of the longest and largest collections of rhetoric nonsense i have ever seen in all my life.

your message starts out saying people believe in aliens because it is more believable than time travel...and??

why exactly do people who dont believe time travel is possible come and check out the time travel boards?

why...nevermind.

FastWalker2

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Chick_Magnet
unregistered posted 13 January 2001 12:21
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First off, why would anybody even wnat to kill their grandparents? Just kill yourself if your that depressed. Don't bring your family into it. Or make sure your parents don't fall in love. It's all bullshit.
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Magnetic Chick
unregistered posted 13 January 2001 04:34
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Ooooo.
Good one.

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[Darby]

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Time-travel Paradoxes! (Page 9)


Author Topic: Time-travel Paradoxes!
[email protected]
unregistered posted 13 January 2001 15:20
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Fast,
the first part of the letter was to the general audience of the forum. The second is to certain persons who I confer with to add to their knowlege conscerning a project that we are involved with. The last part of the letter is part of a much larger technical conscept only those who work closest with me would be able to decipher, understand, or utilze that knowlege. In short I somtimes use this to relay knowlege to my coherts. Even some of them will not fully understand this knowlege until I am able to break it down and expain what I mean. For this is merely to transfer the knowlege while giving away as littly usable technical detail as possible. I will reword the first part of the paragraph:
I simply mean to state that most of the population does not believe in UFO's despite the numerous sightings. And that if the majority will not accept the existance of UFO's the majority will not accept the existance of time travel either.
cheers,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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DaViper
unregistered posted 14 January 2001 04:39
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rgrunt:
Ah, OK. I get your point. I'm not one who has ever seen a UFO and also know that there are a lot of phonies out there claiming to have experiences that are either deluded or just plain lies from the outset.

But...I can't help believing that the existence of extra-terrestrials MUST be so on the sheer logic of the odds alone. I'm not CONVINCED they exist, but I can't see how they could NOT. This is not faith, just deductive reasoning.

Time Travel on the other hand is something I would LOVE to believe as a possibility. Would jump at the chance to endorse if someone somewhere could give me just a glimmer of hope, faith, logic or even reasonable speculation in the mere possibility of. But alas, one burning question remains unanswerd for me. How does one travel to a where/when that actually does not exist in the first place? In other words, how is it ever not eternally here/now?

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 14 January 2001 04:43
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This thread has gotten lame. If it isn't some guy claiming to be from the future, and backing down when he knows he can't answer my questions. It's rgrunt, making no sense at all.
I think the moderators should just end this thread, and put it out of it's misery.

Unless we see some real dialouge going, we're way off topic here.

-Javier C.

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Roel van Houten
Member posted 14 January 2001 10:11
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Hi,
With all due respect mr. TimeTravelActivist, but you to have contributed to the decline of this thread. To be honest, TimeTravel_0 had more useful things to say than you.

I'm not at all convinced he is a timetraveler, but his posts often carried some information that I could think about. Ask him some clear questions instead of vague stories.

Greetings from rainy Amsterdam

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 14 January 2001 17:02
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With all do respect timetravelactivist, I am somewhat relieved that you cannot or choose not to comprehend the information being delivered. Some info is better left to the experts which is why I am not building my own invention. You are not the only one who is aprehensive of the prospects and consequences of the development of time travel. One who I would call a friend is borderline paranoid at the prospect and has threatened recourse any such device is developed. I can honestly say that my original intention was not the development of a time travel device, but an energy source to enable the production and distribution of massive amounts of energy for industrial use and/or consumption. The nature of the device as I developed it revealed quite accidently the possibility of yielding sufficient energy for the manipulation of time itself. It appears that the two limiting factors that are holding back technological progress is the limitation of energy and energy containment. It is like we used to say in aircraft mechanic school, if you give anything enough thrust you can make it fly as is proven by every successful flight of any given harrier fighter jet. If you can produce enough energy I suppose anything is possible--even time travel. I will tell you one thing though, I will not be detered from the development and inplementation of this device--even if it must be developed behind closed doors. I feel that it is time for the world to take serious measures into the energy crisis. We have, so I have heard, about twenty-five years worth of fossil fuels. Here is one possible temperary solution to prolong the consumption of energy. I have heard that the radio-active gas radon is quite plentiful on the lunar surface. Radon happens to be one of the radio active gasses produced by the degradation of Uranium Metal. One option may be to develop NASA drilling teams to go to the moon and search for uranium deposits. If there turns out to be quite a large supply of uranium on the lunar surface that we might be able to develop spacial containers to collect and preserve uranium over the next 25 years while we still have the fuel sources to do so. This might give us a couple of hundred more years of electrical energy on our planet to research for an answer to the energy crisis by continueing research into discovering the ultimate energy source. Since the current form of economy is limiting us by being so dependend on oil and other competitive businesses I thought that maybe a new economy system would be worth considering. If we were to take the economic losses acruid by businesses that fail to succeed on the open market and set up a virtual account and allow that estimated monetary loss to be recirculated back into the economic system in the form of virtual tender in the account of the failed business to spend only on research and development. The failed business can use the cash to develop advanced products for sell. The failed business is then free to spend the profits gained by the newly developed products for personal gain of that business. The bussiness can pay a small tax on the money gained to support the goverment. The oil companies will be satisfied for no inventions can put them out of business on account that any losses acruid by the oil companies as a result of alternate energy sources can be claimed by the oil companies in the form of virtual cash for them to spend on other products such as computers and etc. The more worthy competition the oil companies gain the more money the oil companies gain which is true for everyone. The oil companies will promote the development of advanced tachnologies both on their own and by supporting the competition. Everyones losses will be everyones gains. We can still allow the current money system be usable but can also allow for monetary systems to be kept on massive computer acounts in the form of supercomputers. By having this set up we will use the natural human trait of greed to reinforce our development and in the mean time decrease the crime rate by allowing all persons to have the right to purchase shares of a given business through the stock market. I bet that we if this system will allow every one to gain that we would have no problem getting people to sign petitions to bring this bill before congress. So what does everyone think? Is this a good idea? Don't hold back now?
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DaViper
unregistered posted 14 January 2001 18:33
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Hmmm.
The more I read rgrunt, the more I tend to have respect for him as a person. I started out being very critical of him, but in the end...

He makes no outlandish claims, only speculations and the reasons he makes them. All in all, this seems quite clear to me and not the least bit confusing.

Whether one agrees with him or not is beside the point. That's in individual right. But his pronounements are by his own admission, speculative and as such, come across in an open minded sense. It doesn't appear to me he's trying to "snow" anybody. I can't say the same for all others here.

And his thoughts on energy levels relative to Time Travel seem to be right on topic as far as Paradoxes are concerned. i.e. - Maybe Time Travel is possible IF enough energy can be generated and contained/controlled. But that's the paradox. So far, we have no way to do this. Maybe we never will, maybe we can solve it. But a "Paradox" is only ever really that. Failure to understand a problem that seems unsolvable, or the realization that there never was a problem in the first place.

As I've said before, "Paradox" is an invention of the mind, not something that ever actually occurs in Nature or the Universe. They only SEEM that way to us due to lack of understanding.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 14 January 2001 18:41
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TTA:
May I politely offer that perhaps the reason you think this thread is getting "lame" is that at the moment it is not filled with folks who simply take someone else at their word when they make claims of what they can do.

How is this any different from TT_1 making claims and then sidestepping all attempts to get him him to show verifiable evidence to back them up?

If one requires gullibility in others to be successful in one's arguments, then the arguments can't have much merit in the first place.

The solution to Time travel, (if there is one), requires solid scientific investigation, verification, and publication of said verifiable results for confirmation by others qualified to do so.

As yet, there is little of that going on here.

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 14 January 2001 20:28
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oookkaaayyy .
I'm an Activist, or did you forget that. If you boys and girls can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.

I post what I think is another side you people are over looking. And from the sounds of your posts, your completely oblivious to perceiving that side.

If it wasn't for me on this thread, you wouldn't have asked TT_0 the questions I did. And for that, he is now backed down.

Why? Who knows? Maybe he realizes any further comments on my part, such as ones he cannot answer will hinder his fantasy role playing.

Don't get me wrong, I like fantasy stuff. But if he is what he says, he will answer my comments and show us proof. I would if I could.

Now let me ask you something, did you think about seeing it that way?

-Javier C.

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Shadow
unregistered posted 14 January 2001 21:56
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TimeTravelActivist
Quote: "I am an activist, or did you forget that........"
Are you sure your don't mean "agitator"?

Quote2: "But if he (TT_O) is what he says, he will answer my coments and show proof. I would if I could."

Right guy, "*I* would if I could." Does the word LAME have any meaning for you? When are *you* going to prove *your* story? Never thats when. But I'm sure that won't stand in the way of your coninuing to run your mouth.

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TimeTravelActivist
Member posted 15 January 2001 01:40
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Man Shadow, you sound like a real @$$-hole in that last post you know. At least the others said their peace with a little respect.
I have been trying not to attack anyone since my return. And look at you, you hypocrite. Calling me an "agitator."

So what would you have had me say? I have often times attempted to speak of my experiences and try to make sense of them. If I could somehow, find some way to prove to people of what I am going through is for real, believe me I would.

Why is it so hard for someone to prove something if he can? Especially more when he claims he's what he is.

Roel van Houten,
What vauge stories are you talking about? Can you point one out to me, please ?

DaViper,
Gullible people? Not in here... you must be mistaken.

-Javier C.

[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 15 January 2001).]

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DaViper
unregistered posted 15 January 2001 04:45
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TTA:
I don't think I accused anyone of being gullible here have I? I've stated what I think that term means, and how it pertains to those who allow others to get away with any argument in an unquestioned manner. I don't believe I've pointed a finger at anyone in particular tho.

Frankly, in my opinion the board is LESS lame when it contains sceptics who keep the conversation going in a speculative manner, rather than when it becomes a forum for any one person to direct the conversation while all others simply nod in agreement.

If a soultion to Time Travel is EVER to be found, it will come from stimulated debate, which fosters creative thought and experimentation, not "preaching to the choir".

This may be fun and all for problems that have already been solved, but Time Travel has not. Not to any degree that satisfies MY scepticism anyway. This is not to say I declare it to be impossible. But I DO think thought in other than the traditional directions (Time Machines, Parallel Universes, etc.) is in order to reach a solution if there is one. The aforementioned are merely old ways of conceptualizing it that have ultimately produced, well, nothing. In the way of any PROOF that is.

I doubt seriously that the answer lies in EITHER of these two approaches. But, I COULD be wrong about that.

Thanks for your response.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 15 January 2001 05:00
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P.S. TTA:
As far as your personal experiences are concerned, I'm not critisizing what you say you experience. You sound like a genuine person to me who is relating what you feel and even the sometimes confusion you feel by having had these experiences. That in itself speaks to your credibility.

Since I have not had the experiences you have, I can't comment either way. It would seem that your experiences suggest that Time Travel is more a spiritual experience than an actual physical one, but even that which can be described as the "spiritual" side of each of us as individuals, remains undefined itself does it not.

Ergo, I cannot dismiss them nor can I accept them out of hand. No critisism intended there. Just ponderance of the fact that to me they are "interesting".

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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 15 January 2001 08:52
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Thanks DaViper,
For clearing things up for me, and for others on this board as well (hopefully).
Basically that's what I mainly been trying to get across in my recent posts. That we shouldn't go along with what someone says. I have only been asking the questions, no one has bothered to ask.

And that upset-ted a few people, forgive me folks...

Hence my little sarcasm in that last comment I made to you; "Gullible people? Not in here... you must be mistaken." Get it ?

Nevertheless, it's not my place to try and convince people about my experiences. Cause it's never been about that, it's always been about being critical of Time Travel, and Time Travelers intentions. Some how someone keeps bringing up something about my experiences, and that I can't prove anything, so why am I even talking if I can't prove anything my self, is the point someone's been trying to impose on me.

So then, the topic isn't about my comments of my last post anymore, but of what someone criticized me on. Then everyone gets to talking about it, as if this is what I am trying to convince others about. huuuaggh.

It makes a big mess, it confuses everything. I haven't made any stories, nor have I even spoken of my experiences. Yet, it may sound like I did because that's what everyones talking about. Further more, I would like to see if we can go back before all this confusion started. It was when I posted a few comments for TT_O to respond, say about 4 days ago.

They were about his intentions as a Time Traveler. Ethical, or not? Disregarding his own Time line by spilling the beans. Says alot, don't you think.

Sincerely,
Javier C.

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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 15 January 2001 09:06
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[This message has been edited by Enforcer of Time (edited 15 January 2001).]

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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 15 January 2001 09:08
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P.S. You might be wondering why the new name. Well I got the idea for this name after playing this cool RPG game. "The Wheel of Time." Just thought I use a new name, as a change of pace.
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For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's preservation.

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 15 January 2001 12:04
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In the post that follows, I’ve tried to answer the latest questions directed at me but I am hoping you all may be able to add some insight into something I’ve noticed. In our attempt to communicate here, some of the comments on this board have become increasingly hostile and negative. I see the same type of interaction when I watch news interview programs. The guise of productive interaction and communication is thwarted by illogical verbal attacks and misdirection. I understand why the news does it. They are trying to hold an audience by generating conflict. For a while, I thought that was the goal here too but it appears that anger and conflict is being created on this site to cause genuine harm and pain.
Its hard for me to believe that this is being done on purpose so I have concluded I simply do not understand some hidden element of your collective social interaction. On the other hand, if its being done for no reason, I would understand a little better how people in this time could accomplish so much and yet be so vulnerable to their emotions and fears. I think it was Thomas Jefferson who believed that the only way to sway opinion was through calm, respectful, intelligent conversation.

Weather I’m a time traveler or not, I suppose there are numerous ways to view my “story”. By the nature of the communication medium, I believe it’s impossible to prove therefore it’s impossible to believe. I agree that conversation spurs ideas. If I’m not a time a time traveler, than perhaps the seemingly disjointed statements I make will actually create the idea in one of you that leads to “real” time travel.

(What is a WORLDLINE?)

Individual worldlines represent the limits and paths physical objects take through space-time under the laws of special relativity. They can be shown graphically on an x-y graph with x representing distance in space and y representing passing of time. In time travel talk, worldlines are used as a way to describe and separate the experiences of a time traveler because various laws of special relativity appear to breakdown and can’t be defined on a single worldline. Worldline has also become synonymous with "alternate universe" and / or "time line".

((I see you take things from this world to bring back to your own world. books, computers what have ya. as well as probably the other TT do as well.
Do you pay for those items? or do you just "steal" them?
what do you pay with if you pay?))

I pay for these items with money. Personally, I believe stealing is wrong.

((…could not a TT (time traveler)basically take whatever they wanted from any time?))

There are mass limits to what can be taken back.

((… do you have to take psychological tests before you are chosen? what attributes should a time traveler have in your opinion?))

Yes, there are numerous psychological tests. I was chosen based on my educational background and military service. The training lasted about two years. There is a great deal of physical training to counter the physical effects of distortion. They were also looking for drivers who had a fair amount of self-sufficiency and an ability to function under extreme isolation and confinement.

((What are some things they look for when they chose someone for a mission?))

Depending on the mission, time travelers are usually chosen for a particular mission based on their ability to gain the cooperation of someone related to the goal on the target worldline. In my case, my grandfather was directly involved with the building and programming of the 5100.

((If they pick a bad seed by mistake and send them time traveling and that person does harm is there anyway they can go after that person? I am curious about all of this.))

Interesting question. There is a difference of philosophy between us that should be clarified. Since I believe that all possible outcomes and events are possible, probable and certain, it is impossible to assign “goodness” or “badness” to a person or situation. On some other worldline, I am an insane time traveler causing destruction and death while TTA chases me with his band of devoted followers. However, on this one, I am not. Since both events are certain, their value is neutral.

Therefore, you can only assign goodness and badness to the events and experiences you have direct control over or witness. Only actions are good and bad, not people or things. I suppose if I was a psychotic killer, I could accomplish my mission, avoid capture and still return to my worldline of origin without penalty. There would be no way for them to know what happened. However, I believe that action is wrong and I would be accountable to my God.

((Interesting, if you are from the future, you could tell us just exactly what IT is. Since no one will know for sure until probably 2002 according to news reports. The picture that I saw on ABCNEWs.com of what they thing IT is did not seem to impressive.))

I suppose this question is my own fault. As a time traveler, I am expected to know every winning horse and hot stock as well as the weather in all parts of the world at all times. I was genuinely interested in your opinion of how “IT” was being presented and advertised. Do you feel manipulated? Do you think it’s really a big deal? Do you like the way the news is dealing with it?

((…didnt TT_0 say in a previous post that we were looked down on by future generations, if he is from a "parellel timeline",how would he know this??))

This worldline and my own are almost exactly alike.

((How is this any different from TT_1 making claims and then sidestepping all attempts to get him to show verifiable evidence to back them up?))

Did you mean TT_0 or TT_1?

((They were about his intentions as a Time Traveler. Ethical, or not? Disregarding his own Time line by spilling the beans. Says alot, don't you think.))

How do you think my actions here affect my own worldline?

((P.S. You might be wondering why the new name. Well I got the idea for this name after playing this cool RPG game. "The Wheel of Time." Just thought I use a new name, as a change of pace.))

Is the “The Wheel of Time” one of those “fantasy” role-playing games you mentioned earlier?

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[Darby]

Enforcer of Time
Member posted 15 January 2001 16:04
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TT_0,
Ok man, I have to had it to you. Your smart, and know how to please a crowd. But you have to admit that your coming here and saying your a Time Traveler is a bit suspect. I know, that you have a hidden agenda. You have not made clear your motives, and are only giving us very little proof. Why you holding back...?

I still believe your buying into people's fascination. Your a good study in communications and science, and know how to handle upsets very well.

(You sure your not some corporate PR guy).?

Which is probably why so many people believe your story. But your not Anti-Time Travel like me. None of you have ever been manipulated by a Time Travelers plan for 21 years.

Which is not to say they are, and you just don't know it.

Am I right, TT_0? You do alot of work in the background of our society, admit it. Adjusting things to fit your futures agenda. That's the only reason you can ever have an interest in the past.

You know, I don't know why you keep making me look like the bad guy here. After all, what have I done but just ask you some critical questions. And you respond by saying that all future TTA are trying to murder you. I'm not you, I believe in a criminal justice system. I wasn't trained to kill, like you were.

What are your personal beliefs TT_0? You said you believe in God, which one? Honestly, do you think the ends justifies the means? Don't you have people regulating Time Travel?

You said your self you don't care what happens to your worldline. You don't care about your actions, and what they will affect?

You are a cheater of life... What ever happened to preservering against adversity? You take back home the solution, without trying to handle it there. And in that, you threaten to change billions of lives. And that strikes you as no big deal?

And what's worse, I am the only one on this board who has enough moral sense to see that as wrong. Watch, someone is going to attack me now.

So is there any such thing as wrong for you TT_0 while in the past that you are forbidden to do, or is it all just a free for all?

Yes, actually The Wheel of Time is a fantasy role playing game. Don't you have Final Fantasy XVIII out in 2036?

Truly,
Javier C.

------------------
For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's preservation.

IP: Logged

Shadow
unregistered posted 15 January 2001 20:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Ugliness on the board:
TT_O shouldn't an historian-anthropolagist, even an amateur, be a bit more up to speed on psychology? There is no big mystery here. It is simple. Some people get off on telling others what to do. Others get sick of listening to it. I'd like to say here that the 'some people' I refer to, know who they are. But I'm not sure they do.

Here is a theory for you. "This whole board is a communist plot to send thinking people home doubting their sanity". (And this where you say "you don't know the half of it pal ! ")

--------------------
Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 25, 2002 21:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a problem with the second half of page 9.
It won't post for some reason. So I posted the first half. I sent the second half to Olav to see if he can figuere out what is causing it not to be posted. When we identify the problem it will be placed in this little area here.

-Ok found out what the problem was. There was a spot where John was quoting Javier and he had arrows there I replaced the arrows with 5 stars.
The arrows was the problem so they were deleted and the 5 stars were added in their place.

Fast
Member posted 15 January 2001 21:00
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Art Bell Returns to Radio:
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/artreturns.html
FastWalker2

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WanderingSoul
Member posted 15 January 2001 21:25
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Although I do not post here often, I do enjoy the thoughtful discussions and
mind challenging questions that arise...
The spiritual aspect of TT_O 's discussions and presentations have been
especially interesting, given my interests.

*smiling* I chuckled at the perception of time and the knowing not with
God... some concepts are indeed timeless.

Everyone needs a devil's advocate...someone to muddy up the waters...it
creates an atmosphere where belief is supported by the interaction of faith,
a sense of knowing, and the physical reality we each experience daily...

If we are not challenged and nudged to think beyond accepted thought, then
we can not create opportunities to broaden our scope of thinking... thus
experiencing.

Perhaps we do not all agree on the process by which the challenge and nudge
are laid down...yet there is inherent value in all things.

Be safe and dream sweetly.

WS

IP: Logged

Crono
Member posted 15 January 2001 23:24
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Hey Enforcer, we have some good time travel games here in the present. Ever
played Chrono Trigger? That's where I got my name from.
IP: Logged

DaViper
unregistered posted 16 January 2001 03:13
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Alright!
For me, this is all beginning to work now in the manner I hope everyone has
intended it to. Yup. It's gettin' "curiouser and curiouser".

Enforcer: (cool name. Choose what you like, I'll run with that. And I think
I'll stay DaViper for a while.)

You are right. Once everyone comes around to admitting that none of us has
the answer, we can cut to the chase of REALLY seeing if we can find one. And
I know we ALL would like to find one or we wouldn't be here in the first
place would we.

TT_0:
I stand corrected. I mis-typed your handle and it came out TT_1 by mistake.
I appologize for that.

I also stand by my assesment of what I see you doing. No offense. I've
checked your web site and will say that I think the SITE is well done and
interesting. But I cannot surrender my opinion that it is Fiction as you
have always intended it to be. And not that bad at that.

I see you as a person who is utilizing fiction to express your opinions as
to how the problem of time Travel COULD be solved. OK. As I've said before,
this board itself is presented as "fiction" in the first place, as it states
right on the Home Page. But... does THAT stop us from contemplating the
possibilities that we ALL would like to explore. On the contrary! It
stimulates them. The Web Authors here have accomplished their goal in
getting the topic off the ground for discussion. It's a great site. I
personally have been visiting it for over two years now under various
handles.

(I'll stick with "DaViper" for now.)

So...

Since (to me anyway), the topics of "Time Machines" and "Parallel Universes"
have been beaten to death, how about exploring other possibilities as to a
possible solution, since these two ALWAYS lead to SOME form of Paradox which
I hope we all agree CAN'T be so by the very nature of the simple fact that
the Universe contains NO Paradoxes.

In short, I think there is something awry with ALL of our thinking,
including MINE. But I can't put my finger on just what it is.

Peace to all.

IP: Logged

Enforcer of Time
Member posted 16 January 2001 05:08
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Just some commentary...
WanderingSoul,
I don't know where you learned it, but it sure is affective.

Crono,
Thanks for reminding me, I gotta find the EMU file for it.

Fast,
Do you know where I can find out what station he will be airing on in my
location?

TT_0, care to answer my questions this time?I made sure to put lots of ???
so I wouldn't get excuses that they weren't any.

And Shadow, I don't know what to think about you. You sound awfully cold.

Good night,
Javier C.

IP: Logged

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 16 January 2001 10:43
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(( I know, that you have a hidden agenda. You have not made clear your
motives, and are only giving us very little proof. Why you holding
back...?))

Rest assured there is nothing I have planned in my "hidden agenda" that will
make anyone's life any worse than it already might be.
((Am I right, TT_0? You do alot of work in the background of our society,
admit it. Adjusting things to fit your futures agenda. That's the only
reason you can ever have an interest in the past.))

I plan to leave soon. There is nothing I can do here that will affect my
home. My goals are based on the love I have for my family. Actually, my
inertest in the past is a result of going through piles of half burned books
and magazines left over from a war started by people you share this planet
with right now. On that note, perhaps its more interesting to consider what
I won't be doing to try and stop that war.

((I wasn't trained to kill, like you were.))

***** "Well it's a good thing I got injured in the Army, or else that might
have been my fate as well." *****

I could have sworn you mentioned you were in
the army?

((What are your personal beliefs TT_0? You said you believe in God, which
one? Honestly, do you think the ends justifies the means? Don't you have
people regulating Time Travel?))

How many Gods are there? I believe in just one. What are your suggestions
for regulating time? Perhaps a list of your "time rights" would be something
to spark conversation on the board.

((You said your self you don't care what happens to your worldline. You
don't care about your actions, and what they will affect?))

I'm not sure I ever said I didn't care about my own worldline. If you could
find and quote that, I would appreciate it.

((You are a cheater of life... What ever happened to preservering against
adversity? You take back home the solution, without trying to handle it
there. And in that, you threaten to change billions of lives. And that
strikes you as no big deal?))

I think I understand what you're asking. I'm just guessing that "cheater of
life" is not a compliment. I can't think of a reason why my actions would be
immoral and someone else's would not. You suggest I'm capable of changing
lives. I suggest that I'm no more capable of that than you are. I'm just not
so sure you recognize your own potential. You don't need a time machine to
save or destroy people. If there was another person doing the exact same
things I was but they didn't have a time machine, would they be putting
billions of lives at stake and suffer your judgment?

((So is there any such thing as wrong for you TT_0 while in the past that
you are forbidden to do, or is it all just a free for all?))

Yes, I believe in wrong and right. I judge my actions based on God's law. Is
it wrong for me to murder? Yes it is. Is it wrong for me to teach someone
how to defend themselves and they commit murder? No, I am not their keeper.
Since I am leaving, I will be incapable of causing any harm. But, what
damage will you do with anything I have said?

((Yes, actually The Wheel of Time is a fantasy role playing game. Don't you
have Final Fantasy XVIII out in 2036?))

Yes, we have games.

((TT_O shouldn't an historian-anthropolagist, even an amateur, be a bit more
up to speed on psychology?))

I apologize. I am learning all the time and I wish I were smarter too. You
must remember that reading about a society is one thing and being exposed to
it is another.

((TT_0, care to answer my questions this time?I made sure to put lots of ???
so I wouldn't get excuses that they weren't any.))

I was not trying to offer excuses. Please forgive my ignorance. I was
unaware that question marks were optional.

IP: Logged

pamela
Member posted 16 January 2001 13:20
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Well, it looks like if anybody has any questions to ask TTO...now would be
the time to do so.
I have learned so much over the past few months. with the added info I have
gained I have went back and reread books such as hyperspace and string
theories and blackhole books I had and things are really starting to fall
into place with the additional info I have gathered. pieces are being fit
together to create a beautiful picture of the nature of time. it is funny as
I am reading some of the old info I had and now the new I will find myself
saying "oh...now I understand..."
I am very busy studying at this time.
and yes,Daviper, always searching for the truth in new theories and
beyond.as I have always said "science fiction of today may become tomorrows
science fact."
I am sorry that you did not respond to my e-mail for an opportunity to chat
with TTO,Mr. Schasteen and time 02112.perhaps you were busy. I tried to get
a hold of you both yesterday.
I have had wonderful chats with TTO.
last night djayr42(Joe)and I talked to him for I believe over three hours.
He is a wonderful person and I am sorry you may never get to know that.

sincerely,
pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 16 January 2001).]

IP: Logged

Prophet
Junior Member posted 16 January 2001 15:03
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Well, I must say this thread has piqued my interest. I have a few questions
for TT_0:
First, where does your interest in the (our) U.S. Constitution stem from?

Why do you think it is so vital for us to read and understand it?

Second, do you not like your "new" Constitution?

Or feel that it is not as effective as the original?

Third, you keep saying that you will be going back to your worldline soon,
how soon will this be?

Can you give a specific day? Or week?

I have many questions for you and would like to be able to know how much
time I have left to ask them of you.

rgrunt:

Could you please space out your posts to make it easier to read - it is very
difficult to read a post that is in one large block of words compared to one
that has each thought, or idea, seperated by spaces.

Prophet

Edited for clarification

[This message has been edited by Prophet (edited 16 January 2001).]

IP: Logged

Enforcer of Time
Member posted 16 January 2001 19:03
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
TT_0,
I don't think you got my point... But your leaving, and I'm tired of telling
you. So I just don't care anymore.

Yes, I was in the Army... But I was injured, I didn't finish going through
BCT. In addition, I guess you can say I had a change in perspective about
life, after my accident.

I don't wish to comment any further about that...

And as for you saying you didn't care about your worldline, here it is, you
saying it.

Excerpt from: Time-travel Paradoxes! (Page 2)

-------------------------
TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 12 November 2000 16:41
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
(Have you considered the possible adverse consequences the person might face
that you had post them for you since you remain covert? or don't you care
since it is not your world line. what about the people that read the
information and attempt to build one? what if they get injured in the
process because they are not knowledgeable enough to handle the forces they
are playing with at this "time".)

Yes, I have considered it but it is very easy to remain hidden behind a veil
of disbelief. The people who understand what they are seeing are not
aggressive. Everyone else just finds them entertaining. The obvious first
answer is that the only world line of consequence is my own and I don't care
what happens here. That however, is not the case. I have shown these
documents in order that people might consider the possibility. I do not
expect people to believe them.
---------------------

Enjoy,
Javier C.

------------------
"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's
preservation."

IP: Logged

Shadow
unregistered posted 16 January 2001 19:47
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To TT_O
Is it physically possible for you to get back to THIS time line once you
leave?

If all 7 Billion of us here each had our own time machine do you think that
would we would end up trashing the rest of the local worldlines?

Recomended movies:
Arthur C. Clarks' 2001
WaterWorld (Kevin Kosner)
Dances With Wolves
Chrimson Tide
Backdraft
Forest Gump
Little Big Man

There are a lot of good movies of substance. Good movies like good books are
more than a mere passtime. I've got one heck of a book collection that I
probably won't need come 2036. Any suggestions on where to drop it off? (It
weighs about 3000 pounds.)

Watch out for the time cops on your way out.

IP: Logged

WanderingSoul
Member posted 16 January 2001 21:19
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*chuckling*
Enforcer:

I shall take it that was NOT a typo...

*still chuckling*

Be safe and dream sweetly.

WS

IP: Logged

Enforcer of Time
Member posted 16 January 2001 21:50
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
What's so funny WanderingSoul? If I didn't know better, I could swear your
laughing at me.
------------------
"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's
preservation."

IP: Logged

 

[Darby]

Curious
unregistered posted 17 January 2001 12:37
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To TT_0, You have made a difference. You have at least opened some people's
eyes to the possibility of time travel and what is going on around them. But
like I said earlier, you will leave, and the memory will fade. Some peoples
eyes will not stay open very long. Other people though, will grasp the
spark, hopefully making a difference. I think this has been a positive
experiance. I hope it has been for you too.
Safe trip home, and God speed. Maybe we will talk again some time ;~)
Curious
IP: Logged

P.Light
unregistered posted 17 January 2001 02:03
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To T-T-A,
Let me just say this.

Even before you came here criticizing this foumn and T-T-O , i was here from
the beginning, asking the same questions. I have been watching this forumn
and watching the same questions being repeated over and over to T-T-O.....

He doesn't answer your questions because there is no reason to. Read back
and you'll see what i mean. He/She has told us before to read his previous
posts for answers and yes, there they are.

To R-Grunt, Could you please, in future ,write your answers in paragraphs?
Much easier to read, I might say. Thank you.

.....P.Light.....

IP: Logged

Enforcer of Time
Member posted 17 January 2001 03:45
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
P.Light,
Well excuse me... I just saw the post the first day I got back to this
board, and jumped right in to respond. As I'm sure that's what most people
in this forum do anyway's, am I right?

I read all his past post though. And that's why I cut and paste something
that he said. The man said to quote him, or did you not read that part...?
He still hasn't replied.

You seem to know him pretty well, are you his friend or something? I tell
you, a man can't get a decent unbiased review in this board now a days.

Well maybe from DaViper, he doesn't sound like he's on anyones side.

Good night,
-Javier C.

P.S. I'll bet you the next topic after my post will be on sides. Care to
place any bets who will take a crack at it?

------------------
"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's
preservation."

IP: Logged

TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 17 January 2001 11:29
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
In the future, sociologists spend a great of time discussing the collective
mentality before the war that led to the demise of "Homo Materia". Many of
them point to an experiment that was done in the 1970's or 1980's. The
experiment isolated various sizes of rat populations in varying cage sizes
with varying food and cleaning schedules. It was discovered that no matter
what, there was a certain ratio of rats to space that once overtaken by
population would always lead to aggressive and destructive behavior in the
rats until enough of them had died or been killed to get back under the
ratio. This was true even when the rats that were given plenty of food and
had their cage cleaned every day.
Besides the occasional school or office shooting and violent video game, I
can't help but think about that experiment every time I see someone stranded
on the highway or walking on the side of the road carrying an empty gas can.
I ask my parents why we don't stop and help and they tell me they are afraid
of being attacked and of the possible consequences of helping someone they
don't know. I would respond by pointing out that it's our duty to help
someone, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because we can
never know that person's true worth and the risk of losing then is too
great. I didn't fully understand their stubbornness until I saw a news story
about a doctor who was sued for applying emergency first aid to an accident
victim who died. I believe your society is biologically geared for
self-destruction. However, I feel strongly that does not excuse me from my
responsibilities as a temporary member of this community.

Although TTA is a bit quirky and eccentric, he does belong to us. He's this
community's quirky and eccentric guy and although he can be aggravating, I
can't help but feel protective of him. As I'm sure most of us believe, under
all of his postings, he has some interesting things to say. When I first
read one of his postings, I first shake my head and then I begin to question
my own understanding of not only the English language but of the real
meaning of the odd things he brings up. If it's done on purpose, it's quite
effective. I am often forced to go back through the dictionary or grammar
handbook just to make sure there's not some obscure punctuation or grammar
rule I was unaware of.

As an example, when I read his mission statement, I do think the effect of
not writing a complete sentence before the period is dramatic but I am
forced to examine the word "it's" and wonder if it represents the
contraction for "it is" or if it means the possessive of the understood
subject from the first part.

Please understand, I do not point this out to cause harm. People are often
first judged by the way they write and speak. I can't help but think a great
deal of anger is a result of frustration to make ourselves understood.
Throughout our lives, a real understanding of how to communicate would help
anyone express themselves better. As I find myself double checking how to
use the English language I only recommend that TTA do the same. I am quite
anxious to his ideas or set of rules on the use of time travel.

IP: Logged

Trott
Member posted 17 January 2001 11:46
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Although, I do not wish to take sides in this argument. TTA if you re-read
what you quoted, you will notice something.
---------------
(Have you considered the possible adverse consequences the person might face
that you had post them for you since you remain covert? or don't you care
since it is not your world line. what about the people that read the
information and attempt to build one? what if they get injured in the
process because they are not knowledgeable enough to handle the forces they
are playing with at this "time".)
Yes, I have considered it but it is very easy to remain hidden behind a veil
of disbelief. The people who understand what they are seeing are not
aggressive. Everyone else just finds them entertaining. The obvious first
answer is that the only world line of consequence is my own and I don't care
what happens here. That however, is not the case. I have shown these
documents in order that people might consider the possibility. I do not
expect people to believe them.
--------------------
TT_0 says that the obvious first answer to the question is that he must not
care for what happens on any worldline except for his own. But notice
immediately after that sentence he says that is not however the case. That
the true answer is that he just wanted people to consider the possibility
and that is why he posted the material. He never says that the only time
line he cared to protect was his own.

IP: Logged

djayr42
Member posted 17 January 2001 20:14
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----
I beleive the experiment was called "Hell's Kitchen."
IP: Logged

Fast
Member posted 17 January 2001 20:24
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i dont understand why all these people are like 'TT_0 touched me and opened
my eyes to the world'..
and TT_0 seems to change his opinion of the people of "this" time every
other post of his.

first he despised us,now he admires us for shaping the things to come??

FastWalker2

PS No tt_0 no questions were directed toward you in the making of this post.

IP: Logged

borgus
unregistered posted 17 January 2001 21:09
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TimeTravel_0..
It has been fascinating to read your insights on the social flaws during
this time period. Since you are not a part of this society (or at least new
to it) it is more obvious for you than many of us.

Your observations strike a deep meaning with me, because I've spent the last
4 years writing a science fiction audio drama about the greed of humanity
around the year 2000.

What disturbs me is that, yes, there are many who understand these problems
of greed. Most of us know it exists, but cannot attribute the source. Some
think greed is the necessary thread which tightly holds our economy
together. There are the many that just accept greed as the normal way of
life, even though they know there is something wrong about it. Action is
never taken to fix the mindset of what money is really for.

There are always those who enjoy cheating, weaseling, and playing tricks to
gain false respect. Those people thrive on knowing how to get ahead. As long
as they win their steadfast race to personal satisfaction, they will always
influence others. It doesn't matter how many of us become outward,
collective, and self-less... the greedy individuals will always rise.

So TimeTravel_0, having lived through the self destruction of the human
race, what sort of future do you imagine after 2036? Will humans colonolize
and expand through the solar system?

Or will we be forever bound to our inward existance, measuring the past,
fearfull of the future.

IP: Logged

WanderingSoul
Member posted 17 January 2001 21:41
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Enforcer..
With, I hope... *smiling*

Life is short and battles need to be chosen with care...

*little shrug* There are few concepts in my life I expend emotional energy
on... The important ones gain my full attention. I simply believe that
everyone has something to contribute...even if we do not like it...agree
with it... or even understand it.

A personal value I hold.

Anything that challenges me to think beyond what I thought yesterday..opens
doors for me now and tomorrow *little smile*

*little shrug*

Life is good *grin*

Be safe and dream sweetly.

WS

IP: Logged

Enforcer of Time
Member posted 17 January 2001 22:10
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----
That's very nice of you Trott, answering for TT_0. But I'm sure he's a big
boy now and can answer his own post, thank you very much.
TT_0,
By being the eccentric & aggravating guy in this community, do you mean the
guy that brings up things that are in opposition to the common ideals of
this board? Then sure, if you wish to define my actions like that, I really
don't care.

As long as I am aware that what I am doing is looking at things from both
sides, and advocating freedom. What people say won't make me give in to your
followers.

You can tell which ones they are by reading their posts. All this praise,
like if you were some God.

And further more, it's a good thing you don't know what my voice sounds
like. Or you'd criticize the way I pronounce things too, because I have a
slight accent.

After all, I am fluent in Spanish and English. Spanish is my native tongue
though. And it's pretty hard to lose it, look at Ricky Martin, and Antonio
Banderas.

See Me here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/pic8x.jpg

WanderingSoul,
There's not much we know about you. You made a little comment about your
life, but that's just it. No real insight as to who is giving this wisdom
(since your so good at giving it). Don't you think we must first know who is
giving it? And how has it helped you? You just preach, even church preaches
give examples about their lives and others how it's helped them. Think about
doing that, might make your posting seem less creepy (at times) and make
your words more effective.

Gotta Go,
Javier C.

------------------
"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's
preservation."

IP: Logged

[ December 31, 2002, 19:37: Message edited by: Pamela ]

--------------------
Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 28, 2002 06:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time-travel Paradoxes! (Page 10)


Author Topic: Time-travel Paradoxes!
WanderingSoul
Member posted 18 January 2001 12:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enforcer...
Preach?

Nahhh I'll read. Observe. ... and draw my own conclusions based upon what is presented here. Like many others, I gleen alot out of everyone's postings.

I am a nobody *little smile* If others gleen something from my sporadic postings...wonderful...if not...not.

Be safe and dream sweetly.

WS

IP: Logged

Shadow
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 12:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To borgus
Greed is a compass that points to The Conspiracy. It is a conspiracy of secrecy to hide/deny the fact that Homosapiens are as a species SELF-PREDITORY. Period.

Oops! I just spilled the beans. Ah, what the heck we all know the truth, we are just a little shy in admitting it.

IP: Logged

borgus
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 02:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Shadow...
Other species kill each other too Its all about protecting DNA lines.

To TimeTravel_0...

Can you record a quick voice message for us before you leave?

IP: Logged

DaViper
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 04:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah TT_0, OK.
I'll go ahead and run with the way you want to tell it.

You are obviously a thinker on social issues, a contemplator of paradox, and hypothesizer of possibilities.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I see you as a Libertarian who expounds on the need for humanity to get back to certain basics. Like the issues defined by the Constitution and your comments earlier on firearms tend to make me believe you are a Gun Rights activist.

So, no critisism intended here but...
(and you know I see your scenario as pure fiction on your part), could you give us your thoughts on how us "less enlightened" ones here in this worldline of the here/now can solve the technical problems of time travel so that we may be able to enjoy the same first hand knowledge you have that gives you these social insights?

I mean, EVERYBODY hates a tease right?



IP: Logged

Trott
Member posted 18 January 2001 10:00
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Mr. TT_0,
Let us assume you are a time traveller. I do not see any viable way for you to return to your own time line then. I say this because that you mentioned the difficulty with time travel in the sense of divergences. You said that you travelled back in time from 2036 to 1975 with a ~1-2% divergence. You also mentioned that in your time frame a 0% divergence is sort of a myth, i.e technologically improbable. Now if I understand your plan, you say you will once again travel back to 1975 before you arrived and then go forward as to avoid going into the future of our time line, which by your presence here would be an alternate future from your own. But what I would ask is, if you plan to go back to 1975 from 2000, you should incur a certain non-zero percent divergence just as you did going from 2036 to 1975. I would surmize that it is impossible or technologically improbable for you to go back to the exact world line you departed from then. Even if you are able to travel back with a 0% divergence, which by your previous words would be mythological, what would ensure you that the future you travelled into was exactly the world line you left. Since there are an infinite number of possible world lines departing from 1975 into the future. I suppose the key point of this argument is that any trip through time with your technology would result in a non-zero divergence, and in order for you to arrive in your own world line you must create a 0% divergent trip. This is amusing in the sense that the harder you try to get to your own world line the more divergences you incur and hence the furthur away you get. I believe I see the birth of a new temporal paradox.
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rgrunt
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 10:02
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I will be glad to double space and set up my
postings in paragraph form. Anything to make

my postings easier to understand.

cheers from rainy california,he he.

Edwin G. Schasteen

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BUZZ
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 11:54
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OH great. good going guys! now we will have a whole page of just rgrunt's postings,double and tripled spaced with seperating topics and paragraphs and chapter numbers! HAHA
just joking,Rgrunt your postings are very interesting.

TTO-thankyou for answering my questions.

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Draco2
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 15:16
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Hey Everyone!! While I've been following this thread from the beginning and even conveyed a few thoughts on the topic matter as it evolved, I have been, for the most part, been following the topic discussion to TTO's answers to everyones questions. I have come to a couple conclusions. First of all I want to commend TTO for provoking much thoughtfull and insightfull discussion on, even the probability much less the possability that what he says is true. And I would like to commend those that treated this topic discussion with respectful scrutiny and thought provoking questions for TTO. I understand that for TTO to reveal himself as a time traveler in this timeline on this board was a matter of great risk on his part and I commend him for it!! Who are we to say he's not for real!!! Being a Druid MAGI I've also conveyed thoughts and realities that have fallen upon great scrutiny and rightly so. It is when we stop asking how and why that we are truely doomed as a race!! We have to open our minds and get peoples heads out of the sands of disbelief and ignorance, only then can we truely be ready for the next level, as a race. Individually, some are already at the doorway of the next level!! As a race there's too much hate and greed for this to happen on an evolutionary scale for a while. That is a sad state of affairs!!
As far as I'm concerned, GODSPEED TTO!!!!

Respectably,

Draco the Druid

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 18 January 2001 15:18
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That was funny,
Now that I will be double spacing my posts

this string should be twenty pages long

within the next couple of days making

everyone think that there is something

really interesting being discussed on this

string. Just one question, once this string

of pages is long enough to be a book who

reserves the right to become a million-uhh-I

mean author of the book?

Ha Ha!

Edwin G. Schasteen

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Fast
Member posted 18 January 2001 17:56
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rgrunt,
the double spacing is not needed..just add a space inbetween ideas..

Draco,
your a druid?a friend of mine is Wiccan...their like ancient hippies

FastWalker2

"May you be Enlightened"--....

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markog1001
Junior Member posted 18 January 2001 21:53
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anyone know whats the best time travel device out there and where i can purchase one? also anyone know where i can locate any interdimensional portals in alabama, i live in birmingham, alabama.. .... mg
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rgrunt
unregistered posted 19 January 2001 15:33
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Draco2,
that is amazing. I read a book entitled "Druids" by an Irish female author, I don't remember the name. The story was set back in roman times and was based on the early life of a chief druid by the name Ainvar...meaning 'one who travels far'.

The events in the story were centered around the conflict between celts and the romans. The story finishes off with the defeat of the celts by the romans in one fantastic battle.

I was going to ask if you have ever heard of the story of Ainvar in the order? Is this a true story based on history or is it just a fictional book?

inquistively,

Edwin G. Schasteen

p.s. Is this ok for double spacing?

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[Darby]

Prophet
Junior Member posted 19 January 2001 15:47
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rgrunt:
Perfect

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 19 January 2001 19:33
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prophet:
Thanks.

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Draco2
unregistered posted 19 January 2001 21:28
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Hey RGUNT!! Actually I believe I may have read the same book you did.. I don't have the book anymore and it's been along time since I read it... The final battle resulted in the Celtic Cheiftain being put in chains and taken back to rome, where the drug him through the streets and stuck what was left of him on a pig pole... As far as a Druid from the Order named Ainvar it sounds familar but the true spellings of names was fully contingent on what language you are using....
~ Draco

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[email protected]
unregistered posted 20 January 2001 16:32
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Draco2,
Yes that is the same book I read. I thought it was a pretty good book. What about you?

inquisitively,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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Draco2
unregistered posted 20 January 2001 17:18
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The Book touched My Life in a way that only Great Books can!!!!!!!!
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!

~Draco

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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 21 January 2001 07:00
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So the topic's moved to Witchery now? What's this board coming to ...?

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observer
unregistered posted 21 January 2001 11:22
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whats wrong enforcer of time,
bored without timetraveler_0? are you going to advocate against this now?
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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 21 January 2001 17:38
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You must be a TT_0 follower .
Hey, whatever your religious beliefs are is none of my business. I can care less what you are, as long as you don't mess with the Time Line.

I may not believe in the same thing as you do, I may even think it's wrong. But that is not an important thing in my life to fight about right now.

Well maybe if it was a cult, that would be different. But you people are harmless , so I have no problem with you.

Just don't mess with the Time Line, and I'm happy.

Sincerely yours,
Javier C.

------------------
"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's preservation."

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Fast
Member posted 21 January 2001 19:24
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EoF,
i dont see why you campaign on about affecting the time line,when you know that anybody in their right mind would do so.

in a multiverse of infinite possibilities,
if someone feels like they should have been a bus driver instead of an astrophysicist,then by all means quit your job and buy a bus...

im not a TT_0 fan,nor a soothsayer,but theres no use telling the people here about such nonsense...i heard this in some movie a while back: "your destiny is yours.you cant change it,but you can rise up to meet it."

some words of wisdom from an eccentric soul.

FastWalker2

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P.Light
unregistered posted 22 January 2001 12:48
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Javier.C,
Does it look like i just jumped right in and answered?
i barely have enough time these days!

Followers?! "As if he was some God?"

I gotta tell you Javier.C, you sound as if you want the entire world to know how much you hate time travel and anyone from there.
Well, guess what. Your a time traveller too.

Think about it.

Just because someone comes from a few years in front doesn't mean you have to slam them into oblivion. What if i was a T.traveller and i came from 3 seconds into the future?
What then? Would you still "Fight for its preservation?" then?

These days,you dont know what to believe anymore. If he is from 2036 and there is a war coming , Im sorry but you'll be eating your words. On the other side, if T-T-O is full of it and is only here to promote this forum's hits well then i stand corrected.


T-T-O is not my friend, nor does he wish to be. Weve never seen each other and probably never will. Anyway, with the information he has given us, i guess the damage has already been done for all of us wouldn't you agree??

I take in oppinions, equations, theories and any information regarding any subject and formulate my own thoughts on the given subject. I dont think he is a God for giving this information, heck, he could be an employee of the U.S government here to find out what the population thinks of T.T! We could all be test subjects. Who's to say we are not?

If time travel is possible ten million years from now, it will still be possible. Who is to say that humans are not visiting this exact time? You can't stop time travel, it is inevitable.

----------------
OPEN YOUR MIND

P.Light

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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 22 January 2001 01:03
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Fast,
Perhaps somewhere deep in that eccentric soul of yours, you could perhaps muster up a little compassion to understand that there are still some people in this world who want to help and protect us.

If someone where to break into your home in the middle of the night, who would you want to come in to help you?

If you see someone in dying need of medical attention, wouldn't you feel obligated to help, and if you did who would you call?

Problems like these will always exist in any universe. I agree with you on that?

But is it really so wrong with wanting to stop criminals from violating our rights?

We have Cops out there doing their hardest making sure the streets are safe for you and me. We have EMT's ready to be dispatched to save your life if you broke your neck or fallen off a tree or something.

Crime is everywhere, and will always be there. So are we to just accept it and turn our backs on it?

That's so easy to do. Yet there are some people in this society that would rather not have to live through a world like this.

And that's where I believe that the same measures to protect people, should also be implemented to Time Travel. If you violate someone, you must pay. Simple as that.

Did I make my self clear Fastwalker 2, or am I to apologize to you too for having morals, like I did to TT_0?

Truly,
Javier C.

------------------
"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's preservation."

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Enforcer of Time
Member posted 22 January 2001 01:13
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Open your mind, huh? Sounds more like you'd let the bigger boys pick on you and have their way because there's nothing to be done.
I don't want to say what you sound like to me.

Because it's all pretty obvious, isn't it?

I gotta go, I have a load of laundry to do.

-J.C.

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 22 January 2001 15:34
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My conversation with Draco was strictly out of my admiration for ancient european history.
I am a christian and therefore do not agree with the ways of the accult and do believe that any religion that is against christ is not from God but from the devil.

I do not mean to insult anyone with this but it is my belief and I hold them also to be true. One day the lord will return and those who have believed on the name of Jesus and who have called upon Jesus to be saved shall be transfigured into an infinite immortal body. At that time all the things that we were involved in here that did not pertain to god will be meaningless.

For at that time time travel and our discussions here will be obsolete to us. God is the one who created the universe and he is the one that will destroy and recreate it again. When we stand before the judgement seat of christ for those who have accepted christ will be judged on there spiritual work. They will be given payment for the work they did for God. That means that if you do your day to day job to the best of your ability to please God and not just for personal gain: in addition to recieving your salary and raises here on earth you will also be payed by god when youre works are being evaluated at the judgement seat of Christ.

That is why I bring religion into this because I credit Jesus for all I have. He is given the glory for any success of mine.

God bless,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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Prophet
Junior Member posted 22 January 2001 16:44
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Amen brother!
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Time02112
Member posted 22 January 2001 21:36
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TT_0 Please read this, ang provide us with your comments...
(How many of the others here, have read this yet?)
(POLL) say AYE if you have, NAY if not,
"Not Yet" but plan to do so latter.

Time Travel Research Center : Interview with Dr. David Anderson@Frankfurt, Germany http://www.time-travel.com/timetech.htm

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DrMises
Junior Member posted 23 January 2001 01:45
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Aye, but only recently!
(caught your post in another thread)
-Theo
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DaViper
unregistered posted 23 January 2001 02:15
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Aye.
And been to his site as long ago as two and a half years.

Or was it only yesterday?

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Paul
Member posted 23 January 2001 11:17
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MY BOOK!
I didn't think a topic about time-travel paradoxes I started would provoke so many replies! I wrote a book about my interest in time which is titled "Hope to time-travel". For those interested I'm willing to e-mail softcopies for free. Just email[email protected] (requesting a copy). I advertised my book in the Time Travel Institute Discussion Forum along with other places. I'd be grateful if you could send feedback, but you don't have to.
------------------
Paul Curran

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Prophet
Junior Member posted 23 January 2001 15:02
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DrMises:
Is your name in honor of Ludwig von Mises?

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DrMises
Junior Member posted 23 January 2001 18:40
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Prophet,
Perceptive, but not really.

Dr. Gustav Fechner (1801-1887).

He was a scientist and precursor to experimental psychology who had a difficult time settling an internal conflict between his psychophysical research and his conflicting viewpoints.

To alleviate this strife, he published a series of scathing articles under the pen name "Dr. Mises."

It felt appropriate, for slightly different reasons. Thanks for asking!

-Theo

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1984-
unregistered posted 23 January 2001 19:30
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John,
Iam worried about you let me know you are ok.
-psalm 139:7-10
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Fast
Member posted 23 January 2001 22:07
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Paul...
i dont think your first post provoked this discussion..it was TT_0's claims of time travel...

FastWalker2

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DaViper
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 03:02
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There is really only one thing I don't understand the "Theory" of. (Relative to the topic of this board that is.) Or why it is even a Theory at all.
That is of "Parallel Universes" or "Alternative Timelines". It remains a Paradox for me.

Someone correct me where I'm wrong here but as I understand it, these Parallel Universes or Alternative Timelines are "created" by events in our own, (timelines) or even in others.

What events? For instance...

I prevent Lee Harvey Oswald from assassinating JFK? OK. This one is easy to follow. But...

What "authority" or controlling force determines just what "events" qualify for the creation of a new timeline or universe?

God? Is this then just another Religious theory?

Or perhaps ALL events create new timelines and universes. Like the collision of two snowflakes during a snowstorm. How about the collision of the outer molecules of the snowflake with the molecules of the atmosphere? Each collision as it falls? Each snowflake? Each storm? Each molecule? WOW!

There must be a lotta Timelines out there and alternative Universes huh. Infinitely so even.

If infinite, then why am I possesed with the gift of individual thought, free will and the choice to make my own descisions since nothing I think matters anyway in view of all the possibilities that are all true anyway. Given these infinite timelines.

Hmmm.

This seems a bit foolish to me but I can't DIS-prove it. But then in science, dis-proving something, should be easy. Except a negative which is a folly in logic.

It would seem to me that "infinite" universes and timelines is totally contrary to the principle of Occam's razor. But then Occam's razor is not an axiom, merely a postulate. Although it has worked really well so far.

Actually, in science, "Multiverse" theory is something that has NEVER been proven. For lack of evidence. It crops up from time to time as a way to explain certain SEEMING paradoxes like the EPR double slit experiment with polarized light. But then, just because it can be used to explain something doesn't mean it is so.

Tiny invisible rubber bands could explain gravity if it weren't for the fact that it simply isn't true.

Multiverse Theory is not automatically true because it "explains" some things. Lot's of things explain "some" things. Most of them are NOT true.

So help me here. Where did multiverse come from as a theory? Where is the observable evidence of it's existence and the experiments to back it up that can be duplicated with certainty and repitition?

Like the speed of light for example. Or Time Dilation which is so easy to demonstrate now it's considered commonplace. (It occurs on every single filght of the Space Shuttle.) At least science is TRYING to prove "Frame Dragging" which IS an experiment under way.

But "Multiverse"? Who can demonstrate this with integrity?

Thank you.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 03:03
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There is really only one thing I don't understand the "Theory" of. (Relative to the topic of this board that is.) Or why it is even a Theory at all.
That is of "Parallel Universes" or "Alternative Timelines". It remains a Paradox for me.

Someone correct me where I'm wrong here but as I understand it, these Parallel Universes or Alternative Timelines are "created" by events in our own, (timelines) or even in others.

What events? For instance...

I prevent Lee Harvey Oswald from assassinating JFK? OK. This one is easy to follow. But...

What "authority" or controlling force determines just what "events" qualify for the creation of a new timeline or universe?

God? Is this then just another Religious theory?

Or perhaps ALL events create new timelines and universes. Like the collision of two snowflakes during a snowstorm. How about the collision of the outer molecules of the snowflake with the molecules of the atmosphere? Each collision as it falls? Each snowflake? Each storm? Each molecule? WOW!

There must be a lotta Timelines out there and alternative Universes huh. Infinitely so even.

If infinite, then why am I possesed with the gift of individual thought, free will and the choice to make my own descisions since nothing I think matters anyway in view of all the possibilities that are all true anyway. Given these infinite timelines.

Hmmm.

This seems a bit foolish to me but I can't DIS-prove it. But then in science, dis-proving something, should be easy. Except a negative which is a folly in logic.

It would seem to me that "infinite" universes and timelines is totally contrary to the principle of Occam's razor. But then Occam's razor is not an axiom, merely a postulate. Although it has worked really well so far.

Actually, in science, "Multiverse" theory is something that has NEVER been proven. For lack of evidence. It crops up from time to time as a way to explain certain SEEMING paradoxes like the EPR double slit experiment with polarized light. But then, just because it can be used to explain something doesn't mean it is so.

Tiny invisible rubber bands could explain gravity if it weren't for the fact that it simply isn't true.

Multiverse Theory is not automatically true because it "explains" some things. Lot's of things explain "some" things. Most of them are NOT true.

So help me here. Where did multiverse come from as a theory? Where is the observable evidence of it's existence and the experiments to back it up that can be duplicated with certainty and repitition?

Like the speed of light for example. Or Time Dilation which is so easy to demonstrate now it's considered commonplace. (It occurs on every single filght of the Space Shuttle.) At least science is TRYING to prove "Frame Dragging" which IS an experiment under way.

But "Multiverse"? Who can demonstrate this with integrity?

Thank you.

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[email protected]
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 10:00
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Dear Everyone,
I was thinking yesterday and came up with an addition to a conscept I stumbled into last week while thinking.

I was reading a book on astronomy that states that the universe is expanding. Now as the unverse expands the temperature of the universe decreases. The author that wrote the book stated that scientist now believe that micro seconds after the big bang there was one super force composed of strong force, weak force, and electromagnetic force. Gravity was seperate from these forces at that time as it is today...so they say. As the universe expanded and cooled this super force broke up into three seperate forces; strong, weak, and electromagnetic. This is what I propose. I believe that space is confined to a fixed shpere of a fixed size and more space is added so that the pressure of the space begins to build up and the density of space begins to increase. One would normally think that compressing space would result in an increase in the temperature of space as a result of the compression of energy that is confined to that region of space. However I believe the opposite is true. To compress space by increasing the volume of space is to confine the energy within that region of compressed space to a greater volume of space. This results in a decrease to the density of energy. If one doubles the volume of space that a quantity of energy occupies, the energy density of that energy will be equall to the inverted square of the density of the new density of space. (S=1/e^2) where s=new density of space, and e=the density of energy occupying that space. Further more, I believe that energy is also expanding at the same rate as space. One might say, if this is so then why does the energy density of space decrease as space expands? If the increase of energy is proportionate to the increase of space, then shouldn't the space-time temperature remain constant? The answer, quite counterintuitively, is no. The reason is that even if a quantity of space doubles and the energy in that space also doubles, the new energy and space must form around the old energy and space because the new energy and space cannot occupy the same region. This of course does not explain the differential in energy density from space density. The reason that energy density deacreases is because to quanta of energy that are closer to one another gain extra density. This manifested in a magnetic field for as the photons increase there distance as they stray from each other the density of the field and strength of the field decreases. The oldest energy is closer then the new energy. The increase in density decreases the density of space in the old energies region and increases the density of space in the new energies region. This creates the warping of the space-time continuum that is present in a dense grouping of energy. Got to goe

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Lara
Junior Member posted 24 January 2001 10:58
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The mulitiverse theory, basicly, is that everything that can happen, does happen. It doesn't 'decide' to split if you change history, or if two snowflakes collide or don't. The possibilities already exist.
Anyway, who's to say we have free will or thought? For all we know we could be playing a role, like mindless zombies. Not a pleasant thought, but just as possible as anything else.

I guess the big question is why? If there are infinite universes, what would the point be of their existence? If time travel is possible, it would prevent paradoxes. Is that the only reason, like some sort of self preservation mechanism?

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borgus
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 12:24
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rgrunt...
why are you so sure that the universe is expanding? the only evidence for a big bang is the doppler effect of the light from the surrounding stars and galaxies. What if this effect is caused, not by expansion, but by the pattern of light slowing down as it enters our galaxy.

It makes equal sense that if manipulation of space is possible, then space itself is a force occupied only within a galaxy. The goal would be to create a void within space equal to that outside the galaxy (where there would be no gravity.) This idea is based on a non-gravity universe, where gravity only exists within galaxies.

Therefore galaxies do not attract each other, and do not risk being hurled into a big bang. Instead they are freely floating in a nuetral environment where light can travel much faster between them.

Light then slows down as it enters the force of a galaxy and creates a pattern we see as the doppler effect.

This means that light speed is related only to the amount of galaxy force it is traveling through. If you create a void within the galaxy force, then light could travel faster, and then relative to that of course, would be time travel.

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[email protected]
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 15:24
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Borgus,

I am not at all convinced that the universe is expanding. I was in such a hurry to post due to time constraints that I was not able to post my views accurately. I appologize for the confusion. I am more convinced that the universed is fixed and not expanding. I believe God when he says that nothing can be added and nothing taken away. But at the same time I am not fully convinced that the universe is entirely a closed system either. I believe that energy can be formed at an area where no energy is present by drawing energy from beyond the center of a measured region. I call the area beyond the centermass of every particle and field subpoint space because it is an area that exists beyond the centermass. This is my theory and it is not even a theory yet. It is truelly a hypothesis. In a littly while I may be able to produce evidence to support or deny my hypothesis. As soon as I have confirmed the viability of my claims or lack there of, I might post the results. The conscept I was trying to describe above is more related the how energy and space interact. The theory you proposed also sounds like a viable alternative to the current model. I believe that there are limits to every field and that at some distance from a given grouping of mass there is zero gravity. For example, if you quantize space and allow for a device pump space into a given container such as cup that has an internal temperature of 91degrees farhenheit, then the temperature in that cup will decrease more as the numerical quantity of thermal photons occupy a greater volume of space. Basically as an electromagnetic field occupies a greater volume of space the density and strength of that field decreases. Now if one were to vacuum out the space from the cup that is 91 degrees farhenheit, then the temperature within that cup will increase significantly as the numerical quantity of the thermal photons within that space occupy a lesser volume of space. Basically, as an electromagnetic field(or any other photon mediated field) contracts to occupy a lesser volume of space, the strength and density of that field will increase. This goes right along with your own theory about areas outside the galaxies. For an area with zero densityand infinity energy density the velocity the vacuum velocity of light will increase without bounds. If one decreases the energy density within a given region to zero then the space-time density within that region will increase to infinity and the light speed velocity in that region will decrease to zero absolute velocity.
regards,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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This topic is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

--------------------
Got light? Make matter.

[email protected]

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Posts: 985 | From: U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Pamela
Moderator
Member # 15

posted December 28, 2002 06:32
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Time-travel Paradoxes! (Page 11)


Author Topic: Time-travel Paradoxes!
[email protected]
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 15:25
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Borgus,

I am not at all convinced that the universe is expanding. I was in such a hurry to post due to time constraints that I was not able to post my views accurately. I appologize for the confusion. I am more convinced that the universed is fixed and not expanding. I believe God when he says that nothing can be added and nothing taken away. But at the same time I am not fully convinced that the universe is entirely a closed system either. I believe that energy can be formed at an area where no energy is present by drawing energy from beyond the center of a measured region. I call the area beyond the centermass of every particle and field subpoint space because it is an area that exists beyond the centermass. This is my theory and it is not even a theory yet. It is truelly a hypothesis. In a littly while I may be able to produce evidence to support or deny my hypothesis. As soon as I have confirmed the viability of my claims or lack there of, I might post the results. The conscept I was trying to describe above is more related the how energy and space interact. The theory you proposed also sounds like a viable alternative to the current model. I believe that there are limits to every field and that at some distance from a given grouping of mass there is zero gravity. For example, if you quantize space and allow for a device pump space into a given container such as cup that has an internal temperature of 91degrees farhenheit, then the temperature in that cup will decrease more as the numerical quantity of thermal photons occupy a greater volume of space. Basically as an electromagnetic field occupies a greater volume of space the density and strength of that field decreases. Now if one were to vacuum out the space from the cup that is 91 degrees farhenheit, then the temperature within that cup will increase significantly as the numerical quantity of the thermal photons within that space occupy a lesser volume of space. Basically, as an electromagnetic field(or any other photon mediated field) contracts to occupy a lesser volume of space, the strength and density of that field will increase. This goes right along with your own theory about areas outside the galaxies. For an area with zero densityand infinity energy density the velocity the vacuum velocity of light will increase without bounds. If one decreases the energy density within a given region to zero then the space-time density within that region will increase to infinity and the light speed velocity in that region will decrease to zero absolute velocity.
regards,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 15:25
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Borgus,

I am not at all convinced that the universe is expanding. I was in such a hurry to post due to time constraints that I was not able to post my views accurately. I appologize for the confusion. I am more convinced that the universed is fixed and not expanding. I believe God when he says that nothing can be added and nothing taken away. But at the same time I am not fully convinced that the universe is entirely a closed system either. I believe that energy can be formed at an area where no energy is present by drawing energy from beyond the center of a measured region. I call the area beyond the centermass of every particle and field subpoint space because it is an area that exists beyond the centermass. This is my theory and it is not even a theory yet. It is truelly a hypothesis. In a littly while I may be able to produce evidence to support or deny my hypothesis. As soon as I have confirmed the viability of my claims or lack there of, I might post the results. The conscept I was trying to describe above is more related the how energy and space interact. The theory you proposed also sounds like a viable alternative to the current model. I believe that there are limits to every field and that at some distance from a given grouping of mass there is zero gravity. For example, if you quantize space and allow for a device pump space into a given container such as cup that has an internal temperature of 91degrees farhenheit, then the temperature in that cup will decrease more as the numerical quantity of thermal photons occupy a greater volume of space. Basically as an electromagnetic field occupies a greater volume of space the density and strength of that field decreases. Now if one were to vacuum out the space from the cup that is 91 degrees farhenheit, then the temperature within that cup will increase significantly as the numerical quantity of the thermal photons within that space occupy a lesser volume of space. Basically, as an electromagnetic field(or any other photon mediated field) contracts to occupy a lesser volume of space, the strength and density of that field will increase. This goes right along with your own theory about areas outside the galaxies. For an area with zero densityand infinity energy density the velocity the vacuum velocity of light will increase without bounds. If one decreases the energy density within a given region to zero then the space-time density within that region will increase to infinity and the light speed velocity in that region will decrease to zero absolute velocity.
regards,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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rgrunt
unregistered posted 24 January 2001 15:26
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Borgus,

I am not at all convinced that the universe is expanding. I was in such a hurry to post due to time constraints that I was not able to post my views accurately. I appologize for the confusion. I am more convinced that the universed is fixed and not expanding. I believe God when he says that nothing can be added and nothing taken away. But at the same time I am not fully convinced that the universe is entirely a closed system either. I believe that energy can be formed at an area where no energy is present by drawing energy from beyond the center of a measured region. I call the area beyond the centermass of every particle and field subpoint space because it is an area that exists beyond the centermass. This is my theory and it is not even a theory yet. It is truelly a hypothesis. In a littly while I may be able to produce evidence to support or deny my hypothesis. As soon as I have confirmed the viability of my claims or lack there of, I might post the results. The conscept I was trying to describe above is more related the how energy and space interact. The theory you proposed also sounds like a viable alternative to the current model. I believe that there are limits to every field and that at some distance from a given grouping of mass there is zero gravity. For example, if you quantize space and allow for a device pump space into a given container such as cup that has an internal temperature of 91degrees farhenheit, then the temperature in that cup will decrease more as the numerical quantity of thermal photons occupy a greater volume of space. Basically as an electromagnetic field occupies a greater volume of space the density and strength of that field decreases. Now if one were to vacuum out the space from the cup that is 91 degrees farhenheit, then the temperature within that cup will increase significantly as the numerical quantity of the thermal photons within that space occupy a lesser volume of space. Basically, as an electromagnetic field(or any other photon mediated field) contracts to occupy a lesser volume of space, the strength and density of that field will increase. This goes right along with your own theory about areas outside the galaxies. For an area with zero densityand infinity energy density the velocity the vacuum velocity of light will increase without bounds. If one decreases the energy density within a given region to zero then the space-time density within that region will increase to infinity and the light speed velocity in that region will decrease to zero absolute velocity.
regards,

Edwin G. Schasteen

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[Darby]

observer1
unregistered posted 25 January 2001 01:17
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You forgot to space your sentences.
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DaViper
unregistered posted 25 January 2001 04:00
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rgrunt:
You had me going in your first post. I thought it was well thought out. Well reasoned, and stimulating. Whether it is correct or not I cannot say. Maybe, maybe not.

But then you lost me again in your subsequent post(s) by bringing what you say you believe "God Says" into it.

Not sure just where "God Says" this. It ain't in the Bible anyway.

Besides, in contemplating the very existence of God one is left to ask "Who Created God"? Then if the answer is "God always was", it begs the further question, "If God COULD always have been, why not the Universe itself without the need for a God to 'create' it"?

Not that I'm Atheistic, merely Agnostic. If God exists, so be it. If not, so be it. Only one thing is for sure...Whether one BELIEVES in a God or not, has no effect whatsoever on whether there truly is or is NOT one.

Besides, I've never been one to let others make descisions for me. I can do that quite well by myself thank you. I won't dismiss God, but I'm really not sure why I need him.

Borgus:

Yes, I've heard views similar to yours before, and no offense intended, but they don't answer my question. For instance, if we extrapolate just a tad further, I could ask that if infinite universes exist, and I have no free will control over my own fate in any of them, why not just commit suicide. I'll go on in another universe, since "all things are so". I could just keep commiting suicide until I finally arrive at a life timeline where I consider EVERYTHING to be SO perfect that I stick around for a while.

But then, this line of reasoning is really pretty silly isn't it.

Naw, Multiverse is a nice cute theory that, like I said, crops up over time to explain certain paradoxes, but it has never been resolved to be provable by any evidence. Besides, as such, I see it as a cop out for side stepping the issue of Time Travel.

If Time Travel is to be solved, we have to begin to think beyond the old easy trains of thought and try to grasp that which we do not yet even understand the concept of.

We need to re-examine our old concept of what we refer to as "Time" itself.

We've exhausted the old theories. They don't work. There are no Time Machines. And PROBABLY no "parallel" Universes. Other Universes perhaps, but not Parallel Ones we have "counterparts" existing in. Can't buy it.

New thought is what is called for.

I may not be capable of it, but those who are need to focus ahead into new territory. Not hack away at the old.

Peace.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 25 January 2001 04:00
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rgrunt:
You had me going in your first post. I thought it was well thought out. Well reasoned, and stimulating. Whether it is correct or not I cannot say. Maybe, maybe not.

But then you lost me again in your subsequent post(s) by bringing what you say you believe "God Says" into it.

Not sure just where "God Says" this. It ain't in the Bible anyway.

Besides, in contemplating the very existence of God one is left to ask "Who Created God"? Then if the answer is "God always was", it begs the further question, "If God COULD always have been, why not the Universe itself without the need for a God to 'create' it"?

Not that I'm Atheistic, merely Agnostic. If God exists, so be it. If not, so be it. Only one thing is for sure...Whether one BELIEVES in a God or not, has no effect whatsoever on whether there truly is or is NOT one.

Besides, I've never been one to let others make descisions for me. I can do that quite well by myself thank you. I won't dismiss God, but I'm really not sure why I need him.

Borgus:

Yes, I've heard views similar to yours before, and no offense intended, but they don't answer my question. For instance, if we extrapolate just a tad further, I could ask that if infinite universes exist, and I have no free will control over my own fate in any of them, why not just commit suicide. I'll go on in another universe, since "all things are so". I could just keep commiting suicide until I finally arrive at a life timeline where I consider EVERYTHING to be SO perfect that I stick around for a while.

But then, this line of reasoning is really pretty silly isn't it.

Naw, Multiverse is a nice cute theory that, like I said, crops up over time to explain certain paradoxes, but it has never been resolved to be provable by any evidence. Besides, as such, I see it as a cop out for side stepping the issue of Time Travel.

If Time Travel is to be solved, we have to begin to think beyond the old easy trains of thought and try to grasp that which we do not yet even understand the concept of.

We need to re-examine our old concept of what we refer to as "Time" itself.

We've exhausted the old theories. They don't work. There are no Time Machines. And PROBABLY no "parallel" Universes. Other Universes perhaps, but not Parallel Ones we have "counterparts" existing in. Can't buy it.

New thought is what is called for.

I may not be capable of it, but those who are need to focus ahead into new territory. Not hack away at the old.

Peace.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 25 January 2001 04:06
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Hey Moderator.
I DID NOT post that last post twice. I did get a 505 Internal Server error on the first one tho.

I got one last night also, but it did not result in two identical postings.

(Just FYI)

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[email protected]
unregistered posted 25 January 2001 09:52
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Deviper: I believe that I read that quote from revelation, but I respect your beliefs and yor right to have them. I am not here to convince anyone that God exists. I am only here to speak the truth as I know it.

I am just a vessel and god hardens whom he wants to harden and softens the hearts of whom he wants to soften. As for the qoute, it was stating that what ever God has done, said, or created can not be added to or taken away from.

A similar conspeptual logic exists in science as well, the law of conservation of energy,mass,and momentum. Even in the case where energy is borrowed from the vacuum of space there is no vialation of this in that the source of energy was gained from an existant source...space. If energy is gained from nothing; then this law is vialated.

Edwin G. Schasteen

Everyone:

I appologize for not double spacing, I was in a hurry. I also got that screen and that is why I have three of the same posts. Hmmm.

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borgus
unregistered posted 25 January 2001 12:29
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Well, I don't have much confidence in the parallel timelines (multiuniverse existance) theory of time. It makes much better sense to consider time a property of motion in the 4th dimension (axis).
But if time is indeed a 4th dimension then it is always difficult to convert that into a visual model that our brains can understand.

What if time is a property of gravity... where you fall through time at a constant rate relative to the gravity. Problem with this is that time would pass at different rates on different planets (which hasn't been proven either way).

If you imagine yourself, and everything else on Earth, falling through time. Then Newton's laws of motion would apply to time. If an object is falling through time it will continue falling until a force stops it. The force required to stop it (or accelerate it) is proportional to the velocity and mass. And there must be an equal and opposite reaction to motion through time.

Using this (fictional) model how would you stop someone from falling through time, or accelerate them away from it (back in time)?

You would need to understand the properties of the time-force, whether it is related to gravity fields, whether it is related directly to mass, or space.

Also this would delete the notion of parallel timelines. If one object were to be pushed into an acceleration away from the time force, then they would no longer exist in their previous position in relation to everything else that is falling. Once they are placed in a location behind the previous, and began to fall again at a constant rate. Would they, or not, be in the past? Would familiar objects be seen around? ..existing in a previous time? Becuase you have to visualize it as another plane of existance. so the other dimensions would be connected to it.

Like i said, its very hard to visualize the 4 dimensional properties. But perhaps the "falling" model will help.

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Time02112
Member posted 25 January 2001 17:31
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DA Viper,
as you said earlier..."Actually, in science, "Multiverse" theory is something that has NEVER been proven. For lack of evidence. It crops up from time to time as a way to explain certain SEEMING paradoxes like the EPR double slit experiment with polarized light. But then, just because it can be used to explain something doesn't mean it is so.
Tiny invisible rubber bands could explain gravity if it weren't for the fact that it simply isn't true.

Multiverse Theory is not automatically true because it "explains" some things. Lot's of things explain "some" things. Most of them are NOT true.

So help me here. Where did multiverse come from as a theory? Where is the observable evidence of it's existence and the experiments to back it up that can be duplicated with certainty and repitition?

Like the speed of light for example. Or Time Dilation which is so easy to demonstrate now it's considered commonplace. (It occurs on every single filght of the Space Shuttle.) At least science is TRYING to prove "Frame Dragging" which IS an experiment under way.

But "Multiverse"? Who can demonstrate this with integrity?"
_____________________________________________
---------------------------------------------
Perhaps the following might lend some additional clues, as to "shed some light on the subject."

When engaging upon a string quartet of talented musicians, there are only two types of designations,

*Those who participate.
*Those who observe.

_____________________________________________
---------------------------------------------
NOTE:> The following posts were extracted from "Autodynamics" *Egroups Forum.
< http://www.egroups.com/group/autodynamics>

Scientists Bring Light to Full Stop, Hold It, Then Send It on Its Way

In today's New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com
(You have to register at the site to read the article).

From: Bill Slawson
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 12:02pm
Subject: AutoDynamics ?

Douglas Scott 01/21/01
[email protected]

From: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001230.html

During the last coupla years, I have been looking at SAA, AutoDynamics in general, and the formulations of Ricardo Carezani. Sometime in 1999, I began thinking about the possible degradation of photonic energy by the theoretical picograviton. The "tired photon" hypotheses, to explain the smooth redshift variation with respect to distance/time, have a number of (surmountable) problems. But, the generally accepted solution for this smooth variation, (namely: BigBang), also has many problems.

If you would, could you supply me with your short list, in links or references, describing why you may or may not support this tired photon thinking?

Anisotropy of CMB:
In the image of the above link, I can see that there is a calico feature to the CMB. The dark patches are limited by the resolution of the scale. I wonder how far off the scale are the depths of the dark patches? Is there data available to recalibrate the image to a different, (lower), central "zero value"? Further, if one were to gather multiple images of the same patch of sky, would the calico pattern remain strictly identical? Over what period of time? The careful comparison of differing images could reveal the changes as being instrumental artifacts or actual sky change.

I wildly wonder if there may be a nominal "rest state" for photonic radiation? If, after a looong journey through "space", the photonic energies are "wound down" by being bent hither and thither through the gravitational wedges of the intergalactic medium - - then, is the result that the background has a rather even "look" to it? Is this "even" appearance some kind of undulating dispersion of photonic energies around and about the nominal "rest state" average value? Or can the true "rest state" be an equilibrium point whereby photonic energies are hardly affected and mostly unaffected by the "picograviton density fluctuations"?

Everything is natural

Bill Slawson
1621 Grand
Spencer, IA
51301-3433
712-262-1111
[email protected]

(C) Copyright 2000 usual rights, usual rates

Slight reference:
AutoDynamics: http://www.flic.net/~saa/

The boundary of the "observable" universe may be only limited by the distance it takes for "most" photonic radiation to wind down to the equilibrium rest state of the microwave background radiation energy. If we can develop "graviton" apertures and detection instruments, the "observable" horizon could be extended way far.

- - p n Jones

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[Darby]

Trott
Member posted 25 January 2001 23:02
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What happened to page 11? I can not see it. Perhaps posting, will allow me to.
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Shadow
unregistered posted 26 January 2001 12:54
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What happened to Pamala and TT_O? They both dropped off the board at the same time.
PC crash, hanky panky?

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Shadow
unregistered posted 26 January 2001 12:55
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What happened to Pamala and TT_O? They both dropped off the board at the same time.
PC crash, hanky panky?

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 26 January 2001 13:32
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Greetings everyone. I’ve been a way for a while so I apologize for not getting back to these questions sooner.
((First, where does your interest in the (our) U.S. Constitution stem from? Why do you think it is so vital for us to read and understand it?))

After the war, the United States had split into five separate regions based on the various factors and military objectives they each had. There was a great deal of anger directed toward the Federal government and a revival of states rights was becoming paramount. However, in their attempt to create an economic form of government, the political and military leaders at the time decided to hold one last Constitutional Congress in order to present a psychological cohesion from the old system. During this Congress, the leaders discovered and decided that coming up with a new and better form of government was nearly impossible. The original Constitution itself was not the problem it was the ignorance of the people that lived under it.

((Second, do you not like your "new" Constitution? Or feel that it is not as effective as the original?))

From my viewpoint, it’s very effective. I am a very strong believer in local or state’s rights.

((Third, you keep saying that you will be going back to your worldline soon, how soon will this be?))

There are certain windows I must wait for in order to leave. There will be two this year. The first one opens this spring.

((Is it physically possible for you to get back to THIS time line once you leave?))

Not with the unit I have.

((If all 7 Billion of us here each had our own time machine do you think that would we would end up trashing the rest of the local worldlines?))

Since everything is already happening and possible on different worldlines, the answer is yes….and no.

((Correct me if I'm wrong here but I see you as a Libertarian who expounds on the need for humanity to get back to certain basics. Like the issues defined by the Constitution and your comments earlier on firearms tend to make me believe you are a Gun Rights activist.))

I suppose from your vantage point that’s a fair assessment. I would call myself more of a centrist. Although I understand the “gun rights” issue here, I cannot relate to it all and it is a common point of argument with my mother. I keep saying her tune will change in about ten years and she’ll be cleaning shotguns in her sleep but it doesn’t help. If it makes you feel any better, I never shot anyone who wasn’t trying to kill me.

((could you give us your thoughts on how us "less enlightened" ones here in this worldline of the here/now can solve the technical problems of time travel so that we may be able to enjoy the same first hand knowledge you have that gives you these social insights?))

When you say “us”, what do you mean? Do you mean “you”? Where would you go if you had my machine? How do you think the rest of the world would react to the U.S. having a time machine and they didn’t? To tell you the truth, I more worried about the computer system than I am the distrotion unit.

((You said that you traveled back in time from 2036 to 1975 with a ~1-2% divergence. You also mentioned that in your time frame a 0% divergence is sort of a myth, i.e technologically improbable.))

Yes, a “ZD” is thought to be impossible. However, consider that an exact entry point “may” not be necessary to get home. The important factor is the path, not the destination. Under multiple world theory, there are an infinite number of “homes” that I could return to that don’t have me there. The divergence for that window is somewhere near .002377%.

((Someone correct me where I'm wrong here but as I understand it, these Parallel Universes or Alternative Timelines are "created" by events in our own, (timelines) or even in others.))

Parallel universes exist independently of each other and only interact to avoid the collapse of the wave function for any given particle that you are looking at. I like to imagine it as a series of parallel lines crossed by a sine wave. Each point on the sine wave where a line crosses it represents an alternate outcome. The multiple “yous” on each worldline record a different result for the activity of the event.

((Actually, in science, "Multiverse" theory is something that has NEVER been proven. For lack of evidence. It crops up from time to time as a way to explain certain SEEMING paradoxes like the EPR double slit experiment with polarized light. But then, just because it can be used to explain something doesn't mean it is so.))

I agree with you that an explanation doesn’t make it so. However you can build a model to describe physical behavior. Even if the model is not complete, its “truth” can be measured by how well it predicts the behavior it describes.

((So help me here. Where did multiverse come from as a theory? Where is the observable evidence of it's existence and the experiments to back it up that can be duplicated with certainty and repitition?))

I believe the closest non-related evidence for multiple universes right now comes from the physics (derived from special relativity) of rotating (Kerr) black holes. If you examine a typical Penrose map, science agrees that you can travel to “other universes” through these cosmic oddities. They can’t be different places in our own universe because you would have to violate the speed of light limit to get there.

Since the existence of multiple universes is a reality from my viewpoint, please allow me to disclose an idea we toss around a bit in 2036. Since all possibilities, outcomes and events are occurring and exist simultaneously, it would mean there are multiple universes out there where “you” are living a day behind and a day ahead of the “you” on this universe.

There are some who believe that memory is some sort of information transfer or communication with the “yous” in the past, across worldlines or universes. Although this is seemingly quite ridiculous, if you think that could be true, than physics tells us that the same information transfer from our future selves on other worldlines is not only possible but certain. Could it be that fantasy or “what if” scenarios are actually future memory from an alternate “us” on a future worldline?

According to physics, there is no reason why this cannot be true although I probably fall a little closer to DiViper’s feelings about this as he does on multiple universes.

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TimeTravel_0
unregistered posted 26 January 2001 14:06
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Greetings everyone. I’ve been a way for a while so I apologize for not getting back to these questions sooner. I've noticed this topic seems to be less than responsive when you try to post to it.
((First, where does your interest in the (our) U.S. Constitution stem from? Why do you think it is so vital for us to read and understand it?))

After the war, the United States had split into five separate regions based on the various factors and military objectives they each had. There was a great deal of anger directed toward the Federal government and a revival of states rights was becoming paramount. However, in their attempt to create an economic form of government, the political and military leaders at the time decided to hold one last Constitutional Congress in order to present a psychological cohesion from the old system. During this Congress, the leaders discovered and decided that coming up with a new and better form of government was nearly impossible. The original Constitution itself was not the problem it was the ignorance of the people that lived under it.

((Second, do you not like your "new" Constitution? Or feel that it is not as effective as the original?))

From my viewpoint, it’s very effective. I am a very strong believer in local or state’s rights.

((Third, you keep saying that you will be going back to your worldline soon, how soon will this be?))

There are certain windows I must wait for in order to leave. There will be two this year. The first one opens this spring.

((Is it physically possible for you to get back to THIS time line once you leave?))

Not with the machine I have now.

((If all 7 Billion of us here each had our own time machine do you think that would we would end up trashing the rest of the local worldlines?))

Since everything is already happening and possible on different worldlines, the answer is yes….and no.

((Correct me if I'm wrong here but I see you as a Libertarian who expounds on the need for humanity to get back to certain basics. Like the issues defined by the Constitution and your comments earlier on firearms tend to make me believe you are a Gun Rights activist.))

I suppose from your vantage point that’s a fair assessment. I would call myself more of a centrist. Although I understand the “gun rights” issue here, I cannot relate to it all and it is a common point of argument with my mother. I keep saying her tune will change in about ten years and she’ll be cleaning shotguns in her sleep but it doesn’t help. If it makes you feel any better, I never shot anyone who wasn’t trying to kill me.

((could you give us your thoughts on how us "less enlightened" ones here in this worldline of the here/now can solve the technical problems of time travel so that we may be able to enjoy the same first hand knowledge you have that gives you these social insights?))

When you say “us”, what do you mean? Do you mean “you”? Where would you go if you had my machine? How do you think the rest of the world would react to the U.S. having a time machine and they didn’t?

((You said that you traveled back in time from 2036 to 1975 with a ~1-2% divergence. You also mentioned that in your time frame a 0% divergence is sort of a myth, i.e technologically improbable.))

Yes, a “ZD” is thought to be impossible. However, consider that an exact entry point “may” not be necessary to get home. The important factor is the path, not the destination. Under multiple world theory, there are an infinite number of “homes” that I could return to that don’t have me there. The divergence for that window is somewhere near .0002377%.

((Someone correct me where I'm wrong here but as I understand it, these Parallel Universes or Alternative Timelines are "created" by events in our own, (timelines) or even in others.))

Parallel universes exist independently of each other and only interact to avoid the collapse of the wave function for any given particle that you are looking at. I like to imagine it as a series of parallel lines crossed by a sine wave. Each point on the sine wave where a line crosses it represents an alternate outcome. The multiple “yous” on each worldline record a different result for the activity of the particle or event.

((Actually, in science, "Multiverse" theory is something that has NEVER been proven. For lack of evidence. It crops up from time to time as a way to explain certain SEEMING paradoxes like the EPR double slit experiment with polarized light. But then, just because it can be used to explain something doesn't mean it is so.))

I agree with you that an explanation doesn’t make it so. However you can build a model to describe physical behavior. Even if the model is not complete, its “truth” can be measured by how well it predicts the behavior it describes.

((So help me here. Where did multiverse come from as a theory? Where is the observable evidence of it's existence and the experiments to back it up that can be duplicated with certainty and repitition?))

I believe the closest non-related evidence for multiple universes right now comes from the physics (derived from special relativity) of rotating (Kerr) black holes. If you examine a typical Penrose map, science agrees that you can travel to “other universes” through these cosmic oddities. They can’t be different places in our own universe because you would have to violate the speed of light limit to get there.

Since the existence of multiple universes is a reality from my viewpoint, please allow me to disclose an idea we toss around a bit in 2036. Since all possibilities, outcomes and events are occurring and exist simultaneously, it would mean there are multiple universes out there where “you” are living a day behind and a day ahead of the “you” on this universe.

There are some who believe that memory is some sort of information transfer or communication with the “yous” in the past, across worldlines or universes. Although this is seemingly quite ridiculous, if you think that could be true, than physics tells us that the same information transfer from our future selves on other worldlines is not only possible but certain.

Could it be that fantasy or “what if” scenarios are actually future memory from an alternate “us” on a future worldline?
According to physics, there is no reason why this cannot be true although I probably fall a little closer to DiViper’s feelings about this as he does on multiple universes.

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pamela
Member posted 26 January 2001 19:24
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Testing>>>>>>>>>>>>
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DaViper
unregistered posted 27 January 2001 18:08
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rgrunt:
By all means please understand that I likewise respect YOUR views. Whether i agree with all of them or not. I was just rambling on about my musings on religion and would not intend to offend anyone.

I like your "conservation" law analogy.

Peace.

Borgus:

Yup. I'd say we're pretty close here. The "Frame Dragging" experiment being readied by NASA goes directly to this "gravity relativity to time" issues. Particularly as it pertains to a spinning body, in this case the Earth itself.

From what I understand so far on this, the gravitational effect on time would have the opposite (or possibly counteracting) effect of Time Dilation. For instance, the Space Shuttle's clocks run slower, but the Shuttle's position of being less influenced by gravity than an Earth bound object SHOULD make the shuttle's clocks run FASTER! Somehow, the Time Dilation effect is "winning" it's battle with gravity's (or the diminished amount of it) counteractive effect.

I don't fully understand it yet, but then I'm not sure anyone FULLY understands it. Otherwise it could be explaind precisely and predictably. So far, it can't.

I'm eager to see what develops.

Time02112:

Yes I'm familiar with the sites and the work in that area and certainly do not claim to be an expert in any of this. But...

I'm not sure what your references have to do with "multiverse" theory. Could we be comparing apples and oranges here?

Thanx for the informative tips toward them tho.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 27 January 2001 18:18
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rgrunt:
By all means please understand that I likewise respect YOUR views. Whether i agree with all of them or not. I was just rambling on about my musings on religion and would not intend to offend anyone.

I like your "conservation" law analogy.

Peace.

Borgus:

Yup. I'd say we're pretty close here. The "Frame Dragging" experiment being readied by NASA goes directly to this "gravity relativity to time" issues. Particularly as it pertains to a spinning body, in this case the Earth itself.

From what I understand so far on this, the gravitational effect on time would have the opposite (or possibly counteracting) effect of Time Dilation. For instance, the Space Shuttle's clocks run slower, but the Shuttle's position of being less influenced by gravity than an Earth bound object SHOULD make the shuttle's clocks run FASTER! Somehow, the Time Dilation effect is "winning" it's battle with gravity's (or the diminished amount of it) counteractive effect.

I don't fully understand it yet, but then I'm not sure anyone FULLY understands it. Otherwise it could be explaind precisely and predictably. So far, it can't.

I'm eager to see what develops.

Time02112:

Yes I'm familiar with the sites and the work in that area and certainly do not claim to be an expert in any of this. But...

I'm not sure what your references have to do with "multiverse" theory. Could we be comparing apples and oranges here?

Thanx for the informative tips toward them tho.

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DaViper
unregistered posted 28 January 2001 15:58
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Hmmm.
Maybe we ought to get a "Paradoxes Continued..." thread going.

It looks like the message board software is starting to honk up over the length of this one.

The last post I made never showed up tho the board said it WAS posted. The one before that posted twice tho I didn't do that.

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pamela
Member posted 10 February 2001 07:01
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testing
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pamela
Member posted 10 February 2001 07:02
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testing
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pamela
Member posted 20 February 2001 09:12
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.
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DethWind
unregistered posted 20 February 2001 22:42
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Argh i missed time traveler! I just wanted to ask him if he knew anyone in the future who was important who had the initials J.W....and if so perhaps he could name them...
heh, i made a riddle once...what clock is a clock that tells time only twice a day?

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[Darby]

That's the complete "Time Travel Paradoxes!" thread. As you can see from the last posts there was a problem when it becamet 11 pages long. The file became corrupt at that point. But copies were made at that point because the thread was imploding.

A new thread was opened and the discussion continues here:

"Topics Limited to 11 Pages?"