Time Travelers From The Past

[Twighlight]

I can never figure why time travellers are always expected to be from the future.

If one believes in multiple wordlines, then in one of them the ancient Greeks developed the airplane, atomic bomb, and landed on the moon, 2000 years ago. One could go further, and argue that there must be a huge number of timelines where apes came down from the trees maybe 500,000 years ealier. Indeed....complex life could have occured on earth maybe 500 million years earlier.

Given that there's about 500 million years till the ever warming sun makes life very difficult here....that would mean there should be about an equal number of time travellers from the past as from the future.

Conversely, it would also mean that if we ever travel to the future, we should not expect to always find gleaming white crystal cities full of hyper-intelligent beings. One could just as easily end up on planet of the apes.......a timeline where the apes simply never evolved intelligence.

 

[aerohead]

One could just as easily end up on planet of the apes.......a timeline where the apes simply never evolved intelligence.

We're already here. :oops:

You also assume that being subject to time is normal. What if we're foam floating down the river while another kind of people stand on shore and watch? Those on shore would stand still in time compared to us except when they walk up or down stream. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Khronos]

If one believes in multiple wordlines, then in one of them the ancient Greeks developed the airplane, atomic bomb, and landed on the moon, 2000 years ago. One could go further, and argue that there must be a huge number of timelines where apes came down from the trees maybe 500,000 years ealier. Indeed....complex life could have occured on earth maybe 500 million years earlier.

I've thought of this scenario, but It would seem that similar timelines would be close together... So if these hyperadvanced greeks developed a time machine, I would think that they would most likely go into the future of the timeline with the hyperadvanced greeks, so unless they develop a machine that time travels, and jumps to random timelines far different from there own, I think its unlikely it will happen they will come here

 

[Khronos]

Conversely, it would also mean that if we ever travel to the future, we should not expect to always find gleaming white crystal cities full of hyper-intelligent beings. One could just as easily end up on planet of the apes.......a timeline where the apes simply never evolved intelligence.

This seems very unlikely becuase when traveling forward In time, a person never really has to travel to a completely new timeline, only one that followed the most likely events. Say you get in your time machine now and set it for 2014. Time machine whips off leaving an unfolding network of constantly forming new timelines most likely in 5 years the entire world can't change drastically. Even if you traveled to 3407 the timeline your in then still has its roots in this timeline, meaning apes would have had to evolved to our current state.

But, if you were to travel back to the time of the Dinosaurs, then tried to travel back, without some kind of timeline stabelizer you could most likely never get back to the 2009 even close to the way it is now, becuase of all the nearly infinte amount of possibilities between then and now.

 

[RainmanTime]

This seems very unlikely becuase

In your last two posts you have attempted to claim something is unlikely when couched in an accepted view of multiple (even infinite) timelines. I find this interesting coming from a person whose mind is "so open" as to consider the possibility of wild claims by obvious hoaxers as possibly being true.

Unfortunately, you cannot have it both ways... the fact that you wish to accept timelines (and infinite numbers of them) but then wish to put your spin on limitations on how/if those timelines can be manipulated is kind of hypocritical.

If you are going to accept the myth of infinite timelines, then anything I dream up (green, spiral-shaped humans that mate by spitting in each others arseholes) is just as valid and likely as any of the other infinite timelines.

In fact, this is just the kind of nonsense that makes the dicussion of timelines and speculation about them decidedly unscientific. But hey, fantasy and SciFi is fair enough...

RMT

 

[Khronos]

Uh... Unlikely doesnt mean impossible. Its unlikeky that green spiral people will show up, but I'm saying not its impossible. Technically, to those green spiral people, we are just as unlikely. When there are infinite numbers, then everything is unlikely.. All i was saying that it is possible that no time travelers could ever show up. I also believe its possible that these "hoaxers" could be time travelers.

I'm not "putting a spin on limitations." That is just how if it is true, It multiple timelines should work.

 

[aerohead]

You know when you curse in a foreign language and it doesn't feel as meaningful? I find it feels the same when speaking local (to the time) words. It took me a long time to learn to speak as others here, but you would not understand me if jab with my yard dict and billow what you shove. My strands are straight but feelers won't spin. :D

 

[Twighlight]

I've thought of this scenario, but It would seem that similar timelines would be close together... So if these hyperadvanced greeks developed a time machine, I would think that they would most likely go into the future of the timeline with the hyperadvanced greeks, so unless they develop a machine that time travels, and jumps to random timelines far different from there own, I think its unlikely it will happen they will come here

Looked at logically, there would not simply be a hyper-advanced Greek timeline...and our own. There would be a whole spectrum in between. That is the basis of the 'many worlds' theorem......that EVERYTHING that can happen does happen. Every conceivable permutation of events would exist.

Hmm...I can see the point about 'closeness' of timelines. But that presupposes that a timeline that split off 2500 years ago is in some sense 'more distant' ( in what ? ) than one that split off 5 years ago. The ( intriguing ) question is.....what is the measure of this distance ? It is not spatial or timewise. The 2500 year old timeline exists right here and 'now'....it is not seperated in time. As we cannot use space or time to measure the 'distance' of another timeline....what conceivable measure would one use ?

 

[RainmanTime]

It took me a long time to learn to speak as others here, but you would not understand me if jab with my yard dict and billow what you shove. My strands are straight but feelers won't spin.

You are about 3 years behind me here... (are you on another timeline?)

I went through a phase like that to illustrate that nonsensical language could actually have embedded meaning. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RMT

 

[RainmanTime]

Technically, to those green spiral people, we are just as unlikely.

If you use the word "technically" then that must mean you could produce a statistical (or at least infinite series) model that would, technically, demonstrate this. Have at it.

When there are infinite numbers, then everything is unlikely.

Errrr. I am not sure how you arrive at that logic. If there are infinite timelines, then just by the definition of infinite (which is not merely "a big number"), then that is pretty much the definition of everything being not only likely, but definite. In fact, that was the point Twighlight was trying to make when he said:

If all those worldlines exist....then it's a statistical certainty.

To use a little calculus foundation: As the number of timelines approach infinity, the possibility of any given event approaches absolute certainty.

RMT

 

[Twighlight]

To use a little calculus foundation: As the number of timelines approach infinity, the possibility of any given event approaches absolute certainty.

Problem is, timelines run smack bang into Zeno's paradox. What exactly is an 'event'....or indeed a 'moment' in time ?

Surely a timeline is created at an exact specific moment......but there is no such thing as an event that occupies an exact moment. Even a quantum process takes a specific time..however short.

The whole idea of timelines as presented by believers is inaccurate. In the many worlds theorem, the alternate realities are not 'created' by events but are a superposition that exists all along. This is sometimes interpreted as 'many worlds'....but it is often forgotten that superposition means exactly that alternate probabilities are superimposed. It is then down to that mysterious character called 'the observer' to decide how much of one or the other 'exists'.

 

[Khronos]

 

Errrr. I am not sure how you arrive at that logic. If there are infinite timelines, then just by the definition of infinite (which is not merely "a big number"), then that is pretty much the definition of everything being not only likely, but definite. In fact, that was the point Twighlight was trying to make when he said:

  

 
 You have an infinitely large square. This square now has to be divided into an infinte amount of pieces that get progressively smaller the further away to your own worldline which is in the center. Some how you fit all of these peices into a hat and randomly draw one. Since there are an infinite amount of squares in the hat, each square has an infinitely small chance of being drawn but the larger squares aren't as infinitly small. Any normal person would say that an infinitely small chance is unlikely. So therefore the world with green spiral people showing up is unlikely to happen. However the square that would contain the worldline were you start yelling at my grammer and word choice is alot larger than the one with the green spiral people exist, and has alot better of a still unlikely chance.

To put in simpler its unlikely that a plane will crash into my house, but even more unlikely that a UFO will.

 

 

To use a little calculus foundation: As the number of timelines approach infinity, the possibility of any given event approaches absolute certainty.

The possiblity that it will occur in Some timeline would be certain. But it happening in our timeline is not certain 

 

[Twighlight]

The possiblity that it will occur in Some timeline would be certain. But it happening in our timeline is not certain

The trouble is there's really no such thing as 'our' timeline. For to have such would be to presuppose some sort of universal 'now' that we all share. But 'now' for me, is 1.3 seconds ago for an Apollo astronaut on the Moon. Likewise....if we were to suddenly get a message from alien beings in the Andromeda galaxy, it would be 2 million years out of date and their civilization probably long since died out.

So our reality is composed not of interactions at one moment of time, but of interactions that go right back to the big bang and have only just reached us.

In fact it would be more correct to say 'my timeline'....as if you are seperated from me by any distance at all then you are not in the same time as me so there really is no shared time to form the 'time' part of any timeline.

 

[pamela]

If you are going to accept the myth of infinite timelines, then anything I dream up (green, spiral-shaped humans that mate by spitting in each others arseholes) is just as valid and likely as any of the other infinite timelines.

You have to remember that people from other times do not think the same as you do.
Also Rainman, it is not "anything goes." on other timelines it is possibilities and
probabilities. You still have to consider the mind of God.
I was unsure if this was an attempt at humor or if you really believed such a thing was
possible. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am also hoping that if a time traveler comes here and posts that they are not
"put off" by some peoples apparent arrogance. People from other times are like people from far away countries with different cultures, different beliefs, different ways of socializing , different
customs of behaving and interacting. Different interpretations of rudeness and they may even misunderstand the way we present yourself. Its not the demand to take tests that I fear will
drive away time travelers but the sheer arrogance of some of the posts. Nobody knows everything.
I am wondering if a real time traveler posts on here will we really be willing to gain any new information or will we still think we know it all and cut them off before they have a chance to say anything of value to us?

Because like it or not in the beginning we will all be lumped into the "people from 2009" and what they were like. They are the ones who make the decision if they want to continue to share with us or not based on how they view us. Yeah, I know there are hoaxers out there but I don't want us to miss the opportunity to talk to any real ones which I know will be a very rare possibility...however...that possibility still exists.

I think this is an interesting topic, twighlight. Past civilizations may even now be amongst us
perhaps in several mountainous regions. Perhaps sometimes we see their flying crafts.


****************ATTENTION TIME TRAVEL CLAIMANTS:*****************
If you interest me I may ask you questions.
This does not mean I necessarily believe what you are saying but only
that I am interested and curious about what you have to say.
I like to gather all the information first and save judgement till the end.
I am here to have fun, interesting and thought provoking conversation.
If you have a sense of humor, are highly intelligent and creative I may end up liking you!
However, This does not mean I will have interdimensional babies with you. LOL /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Khronos]

I think you are sorta right. I agree that if some Andromedian point his signal beam at the MilkyWay and said fire, what ever hypothetical machine I had sitting here on that could tell me when a timeline deverged and what cuased it wouldn't pick it up for 2 million years, but it still would have had deverged back then and as a whole I've been in a different universe for 2 million years than I would have been if The Andromedian hadn't fired the signal. Im not saying that itd like a butterfly flapping its wing and a hurricane forming in Taiwan... but more along the lines of butterfly flapping its wings and a leaf moves a leaf that catches a little more water and the tree ultimately lives half a second longer

 

[pamela]

One needs a time machine just to make sure they can still visit the civilization that sent the message from the Andromeda galaxy!

It would seem that time is different all over the universe.
How is it we can still measure very far light distance traveled if the possibility could be that it was slowed down or sped up along the way? Do we also account for the expanding universe? How does gravity wave interference affect the light reaching us? When we say a star is so many light years away from us how do we truly measure that then? How do we know what all the light encountered on it's way to us that could have affected its time to reach us? Especially if it took 13 billion years to reach us?

 

[Twighlight]

I am also hoping that if a time traveler comes here and posts that they are not
"put off" by some peoples apparent arrogance. People from other times are like people from far away countries with different cultures, different beliefs, different ways of socializing , different customs of behaving and interacting. Different interpretations of rudeness and they may even misunderstand the way we present yourself. Its not the demand to take tests that I fear will
drive away time travelers but the sheer arrogance of some of the posts. Nobody knows everything.

Lol.....what about the natives being 'put off' by the incredible arrogance of most of the tourists ? Nothing irks the natives more than that arrogant ' I'm only going to talk to a select few' crap that most of the tourists spout as an excuse for not speaking to anyone who might expose them.

 

[Twighlight]

It would seem that time is different all over the universe.

No it doesn't. You just made that up.

How is it we can still measure very far light distance traveled if the possibility could be that it was slowed down or sped up along the way?

Because the speed of time is related to the speed of light, which in turn is related to the energy emitted by things like stars. If time was slower in the past, all those galaxies out there would be a lot dimmer....or brighter if time was faster. They aren't.

Do we also account for the expanding universe?

Sure..it's called the Hubble constant.

How does gravity wave interference affect the light reaching us?

In all experiments to date..it doesn't. This also puts a limit on the size of gravity waves, and rules out some models of the universe.

When we say a star is so many light years away from us how do we truly measure that then?

There are two types of 'standard beacon'....stellar objects whose 'intrinsic' brightness is known. Cepheid variables...and type 1a supernovas. For various physical reasons, the latter always explodes at a specific brightness, which makes it ideal for measuring the distance of remote galaxies.

How do we know what all the light encountered on it's way to us that could have affected its time to reach us? Especially if it took 13 billion years to reach us?

We know that intergallactic space is about as empty as it gets. If it were not, then we would see a background 'scatter' of light reflected off intergalactic material. 99.999% of photons that reach us from 13 billion light years away have interacted with nothing on the way here. Shows how truly empty most of the universe is.

 

[pamela]

<font color="purple"> It would seem that time is different all over the universe. [/COLOR]

No it doesn't. You just made that up.

It was not a statement. It was a wonderment. Perhaps I should have followed it with a "?".


However, Is time the same inside a blackhole as outside a blackhole?

Does space-time drag around rotating planets?

Are there naturally forming wormholes in the universe?

Do high gravitational fields affect the local time of an area of space they are in?

When a star collapses to a blackhole is time the same in all of the surrounding areas where the gravitation is getting stronger and stronger and condensing?

Was time the same in the beginnng of the big bang as it is now?

If gravitational waves travel at the speed of light do they ever travel faster when traveling and interacting through all the various areas of space?

 

[Twighlight]

. Yeah, I know there are hoaxers out there but I don't want us to miss the opportunity to talk to any real ones which I know will be a very rare possibility...however...that possibility still exists.

A genuine time traveller will be much more likely to be 'put off' by the prospect of showing up, or admitting they are time travellers, on a forum where 99.999% of the claims are hoaxes. With such a lenient attitude towards hoaxers, you effectively enabled their presence here.....and thus reduced your chances of ever meeting the real thing !