Why the conservation of Matter/Mass is not violated over time.

[Designer2]

I gave myself a problem of time travel not being possible since matter would build up in the past at every tick of the clock. So in other words matter would have to exist in the past so we could visit it. So if there is no matter in the past then time travel would be impossible since you would land in a void of nothingness.

At the time I came up with an experiment in which I placed a bar of gold in front of a time machine 4 hours. Then after the 4 hours expired I would go back in time one hour at a time pick up the gold on the outside of the time machine and place it in the time machine. Then I would repeat 3 more time going further back into the past. In the end this would result in 4 gold bars instead of just one bar and thus the conservation of mass problem occurred. So which is the real bar of gold and where did the extra matter come from.

So this conservation of mass over time gave me a problem for quite a while but I think I came up with a partial solution.

The past does still exist but only as a probability and is not solid most of the time. But it only come into existence when there is an observer. The reason why I can say this come from a classics experiment done a long time ago. This experiment was known as the double slit experiment I believe.

If there was no observer the light does one thing and if there was an observer it would do something else. I have to do some more research myself to solidity this idea though.

All I am trying to get across is the observer has an effect on an object by solidifying the probabilities in matter from the quantum level void. So in essence no observer result in no matter but just a probability. But with a true observer matter exists.

And the greatness of all this is that it does not violate the conservation of mass over time since there is no mass in the past if there is no observer.

Thus everything works out ok then.

We could call this quantum solidification via the observer theory.


There is also another theory that I found that states basically reality(matter) winks in and out over time thus shows again another theory to be possible to support conservation of mass over time.

Basically I'll sum it up as that matter blinks in and out at a quantum level to maintain the conservation of mass over a wide range of the time continuum so it shows up when there is an observer or needed when there are changes in events.

Thus matter is shared over a range of time and therefor conservation of mass in guaranteed.

 

[daver]

At the time I came up with an experiment in which I placed a bar of gold in front of a time machine 4 hours. Then after the 4 hours expired I would go back in time one hour at a time pick up the gold on the outside of the time machine and place it in the time machine. Then I would repeat 3 more time going further back into the past. In the end this would result in 4 gold bars instead of just one bar and thus the conservation of mass problem occurred. So which is the real bar of gold and where did the extra matter come from.

So, for the sake of clarity:
You leave a gold bar outside the time machine at 12 midday.
you let 4 hours pass, it is now 4pm in our "normal" time zone.
you travel back to 3pm, and pick up the bar- and place it inside your time machine.
The bar is now in your machine, which has a variable time point. You have the Bar IN YOUR POSSESSION INSIDE THE MACHINE!
You now go back to 2pm in "normal" time.
You expect the bar to still be there? Or, another bar?
Why?
There is only 1 bar, and YOU HAVE IT already!
Whether you go forward or backwards in time, you have already changed events in a sequence, that is controlled by the direction you travel in.
Whatever YOU do FIRST- changes either the past, or the future. Whether you travel forwards or backwards would be irrellevant.
To an outside observer, there would be a bar there outside from 12 midday until 3pm, then you take it with you.
That would be at point A in time .
To a second observer who arrives at a different time (POINT B), the answer may be that they only see the bar for two hours? But, would that be the same universe?

There can't be two gold bars, not in the same universe anyway, can there?

By Travelling in time, we must surely create a new universe(s) every time we do so, is my only logical conclusion?
Or, perhaps we are "time sharing" universes, being in more than one at any point.
A bit like digital radio where more than 1 radio station is one a single frequency at any given time. This is called multiplexing. Same system is used for data on international phone calls to get in as many calls as possible in a restricted bandwidth.
I have always thought of Quanta (is that the correct word?) as a sort of random release of whatever it be, that of course could all be released at a higher rate- only our way of perceiving it would change what we see.
It all depends on the type of "receiver/sensor" we have.
This is probably our failing..... we can only sense so much, the rest may be too much for us to handle- who knows?

Dave.

 

[Designer2]

Hi Dave

So no one touches the gold at 2pm so what I am saying is the gold should really be there. Unless what you are say all time events are in the now and the gold bar disappears at 2pm? from its spot.

Changes in the example.

Put the gold in a lock box and try again; will the gold bar be in the box or will you loose the key? Note you take the gold out but leave the box behind on every occasion going back in time? So will there be gold or won't there be gold at 2pm in the locked box. Note you take the gold and not the box and leave it exactly the same as you saw it locked but now empty.

Designer.

Post note 1.

I believe everything is the same universe but there may be divergences in the existing time line as it correct for changes in the now. The problem with the many world line theory for it to exist would result in infinite matter thus massive gravity which we don't have since gravity transcends space time and all dimension in there between.

Post note 2.

If you believe in the many world line theory then there is no free will since the future must be predetermined thus per-existent.

Thanks.

 

[servantx]

Only Jesus can do this.

Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand

10On their return the apostles told him all that they had done. And he took them and withdrew apart to a town called Bethsaida. 11When the crowds learned it, they followed him, and he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God and cured those who had need of healing. 12Now the day began to wear away, and the twelve came and said to him, “Send the crowd away to go into the surrounding villages and countryside to find lodging and get provisions, for we are here in a desolate place.” 13But he said to them, “You give them something to eat.” They said, “We have no more than five loaves and two fish—unless we are to go and buy food for all these people.” 14For there were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, “Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each.” 15And they did so, and had them all sit down. 16And taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven and said a blessing over them. Then he broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples to set before the crowd. 17And they all ate and were satisfied. And what was left over was picked up, twelve baskets of broken pieces.

- Luke 9:10-17

 

[daver]

I believe everything is the same universe but there may be divergences in the existing time line as it correct for changes in the now. The problem with the many world line theory for it to exist would result in infinite matter thus massive gravity which we don't have since gravity transcends space time and all dimension in there between.

This is probably true- but, not yet been proven.
Post note 2.

If you believe in the many world line theory then there is no free will since the future must be predetermined thus per-existent.

Can you explain what you mean please?

Thanks, Dave

 

[John Thomas]

You could combine all the gold bars together in one universe from 10 parallel universes. But by the time you can do all this you could just replicate all the gold you need from air and energy in one universe.

 

[Designer2]

Dave and others.

Post note 1.
Maybe gravity does not transcend time since gravity and time are linked. (Relativity) The reason why I thought gravity transcended was on a TV program in dealing with the future it showed that it would be possible to communicate between world line via gravity. I could be wrong.

Post note 2.
The only free will you can have is choosing from many predetermined outcomes in the future dictated by specific time lines. I guess this is sort of free will if the future is pre-existent. They say that before birth your life is preplanned so that's predestination for you.

What I meant by putting gold in a box is I was using the box as a control. So if the gold and box were no longer together something weird happened if you went there the first time at 2pm and no gold. Note if the box is not there either no one should have touched the box, weird?
The box is a control since both the gold and box were placed there at the same time.
There are so many choices at 2pm.
1. gold and box are both there.
2. gold and box are not there.
3. gold gone and box still there.
And the ridiculous one
4. gold there and box gone.

Ah and yes the lock for the box was used to test whether a human was involved or spooky action at a distance was involved.

That all I have to say about control boxes. LOL.

Who knows what will happen?

This was I hope a test for whether the world was a single or multiple time line universe. So what were we talking originally on this thread?

Designer.

Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand. I like this conclusion. servantx.

 

[John Thomas]

The experiment was conducted with cats not gold. There were ten identical cats in a big box at the end. All alive.

 

[Designer2]

John Thomas

So I guess that means there is one time line only or does it. LOL. I got myself up in a bind over this I am a bit something.

 

[Gpa]

Why the Conservation Law is safe from wayward time travelers.

I gave myself a problem of time travel not being possible since matter would build up in the past at every tick of the clock. So in other words matter would have to exist in the past so we could visit it. So if there is no matter in the past then time travel would be impossible since you would land in a void of nothingness.

The Langoliers Steven King

At the time I came up with an experiment in which I placed a bar of gold in front of a time machine 4 hours. Then after the 4 hours expired I would go back in time one hour at a time pick up the gold on the outside of the time machine and place it in the time machine. Then I would repeat 3 more time going further back into the past. In the end this would result in 4 gold bars instead of just one bar and thus the conservation of mass problem occurred. So which is the real bar of gold and where did the extra matter come from.

There is NO conservation violation here because you have only posited a "thought experiment" since there, at this time, is no way to conduct your experiment.
But if it could work, why just go back at 1 hour intervals? Jump at 1 minute intervals and you would have much more gold. Hell, If your gonna dream...dream big.

If there was no observer the light does one thing and if there was an observer it would do something else. I have to do some more research myself to solidity this idea though.
All I am trying to get across is the observer has an effect on an object by solidifying the probabilities in matter from the quantum level void. So in essence no observer result in no matter but just a probability. But with a true observer matter exists.
And the greatness of all this is that it does not violate the conservation of mass over time since there is no mass in the past if there is no observer.

If a tree falls in the woods and there is no observer there to hear it, does it make any sound?

The logical break down of your experiment:
You place a gold bar in front of your time machine and wait 4 hours.
You enter your time machine and activate it to go back 1 hour. ( you didn't say if you have picked up the gold bar at hour 4 or not so I will consider that you did)
You pick up the gold bar at hour 3... In doing so the bar from hour 4 no longer exists because you picked the gold bar up after only 3 hours.
You go back to hour 2 with the bar from hour 3 and pick up the hour 2 bar... Again the hour 3 bar disappears since, again, it wasn't there for 3 hours... only 2.
And so on...
You eliminate the paradox at each stop since you are altering the conditions of the "forward" flow of time.
At least that's how I see it.

 

[Darby]

You go back to hour 2 with the bar from hour 3 and pick up the hour 2 bar... Again the hour 3 bar disappears since, again, it wasn't there for 3 hours... only 2.
And so on...
You eliminate the paradox at each stop since you are altering the conditions of the "forward" flow of time.
At least that's how I see it.

You are still left, at a minimum, with the Grandfather Paradox...just with a gold bar instead of gramps.

You place the gold bar outside the time machine, get in the time machine and wait X hours. We assume that you continuously observe the gold bar during that period of time to verify that it rmains there. Then you go back in time X hours, pick up the gold bar and get back in the gadget and travel forward X hours. During the return trip you have the gold bar in your hand.

In so doing you "kill your grandfather" in the sense that if you picked it up in the past and put it inside the gadget how was it that you continuously observed it to be outside the gadget during the observation period and never saw it in your hand during the same period of observation?

Picking up the gold bar in the past is the same as killing grandfather. If it was in your hand how could you observe it for four hours and report it was outside the gadget? If it is outside the gadget during the same period of time how could you observe that it was in your hand during the return trip?

The flip side of the coin of this experiment is an unanswered question: Add a non time traveling observer to the experiment who is watching both the gold bar and time machine while standing off to the side of these events. What would he observe?

 

[Designer2]

Hi Darby and GPS.

Can't sleep its 4 am. To clarify.

GPS I did not mean it to come across this way.
I really need to make a picture and can't.
Try this below as an explanation.

Steps.

time==========1=======2 ========3========= 4.
A. put gold down in front of time machine and watch four hours.
Current state ++gold ++++gold++++++ gold+++++++ gold + person with a time machines.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. ++++++++++ gold ++++ gold ++++++ gold ======= take gold into time machine.
C. ++++++++++ gold ++++ gold ++++++ gold ======= go back in time 1 hour.
D. ++++++++++ gold ++++ gold ====== take gold and now two bars.
E. ++++++++++ gold ++++ gold ====== now back one hours again.
F. ++++++++++ gold ==== take third brick. We have a total of 3 bricks.
G. ++++++++++ gold ==== move back one last time.
H. take last piece of gold. We are finished and now have 4 gold bars.

To change thing up a bit he run for it in the past and does
not go into the future. Only regular time now like us all.

End of story.

I hope this clarify things.

If this test can be done I believe but not sure anymore that we can figure our wether our
world is a one time line universe or multiple time line universe or that past still exists
with matter in it or not?

Thanks,

Designer.

Sorry for a partial re post. The tabs don't work and spaces don't work

 

[Gpa]

Hi Darby;

You place the gold bar outside the time machine, get in the time machine and wait X hours. We assume that you continuously observe the gold bar during that period of time to verify that it rmains there. Then you go back in time X hours, pick up the gold bar and get back in the gadget and travel forward X hours. During the return trip you have the gold bar in your hand.

This adds a new twist to the experiment. Designer2 didn't say anything about going "forward" in his description, just backward to retrieve the gold bars from the past.

The flip side of the coin of this experiment is an unanswered question: Add a non time traveling observer to the experiment who is watching both the gold bar and time machine while standing off to the side of these events. What would he observe?

This is absolutely excellent. I don't recall anyone adding this premise to this type of experiment. It certainly adds a new flavor. I will "try" to consider this logical problem when I have time. I'm sure it will be stuck in my head today.

Designer2;
It would still seem that you lose the previous gold bar each time you go back and remove the "source" of the previous bar.

 

[daver]

This is absolutely excellent. I don't recall anyone adding this premise to this type of experiment. It certainly adds a new flavor. I will "try" to consider this logical problem when I have time. I'm sure it will be stuck in my head today.

If you read my early post above- you would have noticed I did EXACTLY that!
Dave

 

[Transient001]

I think I understand your experiment. And in my opinion it is perfectly possible, only if you leave the gold bar from A hour to Z hour. Then you go back in time and retrieve the gold bar from Y hour, then from X, then from W and so on until you reach A which was the moment in which you placed it. However a paradox is introduced because you will remember yourself placing it and yourself taking it. You might end up with 27 pieces of Gold or None!!!!! Amazing. Where is that Gold Bar?

 

[Designer2]

Transient001

It all started with one gold piece.

You look at this one gold piece for four hours.
Then you go back in time one hour increment via your time machine.
Then you pick up your gold. Then you do the procedure 3 more times.

So in other word you start with one gold bar at the start and then end
up with 4 cloned gold bars over the time period.

Designer.

 

[Transient001]

However the discrepancy appears when you create the paradox Darby was talking about. If you take the first gold bar at 4hour minus 1hour, two different realities will sprout, one where you took the gold and one where you remember the gold being there. That bifurcation will occur four more times so 16 extra realities will fragment from your experiment. Interesting!!!!

 

[Einstein]

However the discrepancy appears when you create the paradox Darby was talking about. If you take the first gold bar at 4hour minus 1hour, two different realities will sprout, one where you took the gold and one where you remember the gold being there. That bifurcation will occur four more times so 16 extra realities will fragment from your experiment. Interesting!!!!

I seem to recall reading about a theory a long time ago, where the universe starts out with one electron. The electron traverses the entire span of time and loops back to the beginning. Now there are two electrons. The cycle repeats. Now there are four. And so on into infinity. So there really is only one electron. It just exists in a tremendous number of simultaneous states. It seems very similar to your multiple gold bar paradox. Perhaps this simple paradox is actually one of the building blocks of the universe.

 

[Transient001]

Mayhaps!!! In a previous thread quite recently I spoke about something similar. A long time ago a group of friends and I pondered on going back and forth in time. We concluded that the universe being a line it started in A and ended in Omega. However as space bends A will essentially meet Omega at the other end, thus Alpha being Omega and Omega being Alpha. If that electron was to travel forward it would move across the line towards Omega almost infinitely. However were the electron to travel to the past it would have to cross Omega and Alpha and back again through the line towards the X point in the past.

However as it does so another electron pops in for the action. So the universe will have at this point two electrons. Every time it goes back another electron emerges. Note that electrons will only appear when going back in time, not when going forward. At that point we knew that something interesting and exotic was occurring. You know what? We thought back then that the universe uses the Past Traveling particle as a veritable mean to create. In this regards the past is the fountain of existence.

 

[Designer2]

John Thomas

Transient001 gave us both a problem.

I think I understand your experiment. And in my opinion it is perfectly possible, only if you leave the gold bar from A hour to Z hour. Then you go back in time and retrieve the gold bar from Y hour, then from X, then from W and so on until you reach A which was the moment in which you placed it. However a paradox is introduced because you will remember yourself placing it and yourself taking it. You might end up with 27 pieces of Gold or None!!!!! Amazing. Where is that Gold Bar?

By probability you should have a 50/50 chance of getting the gold but got all cats.
What I mean is you should of got approximately 50% yield of cats.

Another question do all the cats have souls or just one cat have a soul? Reference Jean-Luc Picard seen in the shuttle bay with self or soulless double. Remember they were our of phase with each other.

Do all the cats look all the same?

The reason why I thought it was one world line was I thought all the gold piece where out of phase with each other
or time division multiplied electrons between each of the gold bars. I think someone above mentioned time division multiplexing. Thanks.

By the way my picture was terrible and misleading so please ignore above.

Thanks,

Designer.