Time-travel Paradoxes!

Hi,

With all due respect mr. TimeTravelActivist, but you to have contributed to the decline of this thread. To be honest, TimeTravel_0 had more useful things to say than you.

I'm not at all convinced he is a timetraveler, but his posts often carried some information that I could think about. Ask him some clear questions instead of vague stories.

Greetings from rainy Amsterdam

 
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With all do respect timetravelactivist, I am somewhat relieved that you cannot or choose not to comprehend the information being delivered. Some info is better left to the experts which is why I am not building my own invention. You are not the only one who is aprehensive of the prospects and consequences of the development of time travel. One who I would call a friend is borderline paranoid at the prospect and has threatened recourse any such device is developed. I can honestly say that my original intention was not the development of a time travel device, but an energy source to enable the production and distribution of massive amounts of energy for industrial use and/or consumption. The nature of the device as I developed it revealed quite accidently the possibility of yielding sufficient energy for the manipulation of time itself. It appears that the two limiting factors that are holding back technological progress is the limitation of energy and energy containment. It is like we used to say in aircraft mechanic school, if you give anything enough thrust you can make it fly as is proven by every successful flight of any given harrier fighter jet. If you can produce enough energy I suppose anything is possible--even time travel. I will tell you one thing though, I will not be detered from the development and inplementation of this device--even if it must be developed behind closed doors. I feel that it is time for the world to take serious measures into the energy crisis. We have, so I have heard, about twenty-five years worth of fossil fuels. Here is one possible temperary solution to prolong the consumption of energy. I have heard that the radio-active gas radon is quite plentiful on the lunar surface. Radon happens to be one of the radio active gasses produced by the degradation of Uranium Metal. One option may be to develop NASA drilling teams to go to the moon and search for uranium deposits. If there turns out to be quite a large supply of uranium on the lunar surface that we might be able to develop spacial containers to collect and preserve uranium over the next 25 years while we still have the fuel sources to do so. This might give us a couple of hundred more years of electrical energy on our planet to research for an answer to the energy crisis by continueing research into discovering the ultimate energy source. Since the current form of economy is limiting us by being so dependend on oil and other competitive businesses I thought that maybe a new economy system would be worth considering. If we were to take the economic losses acruid by businesses that fail to succeed on the open market and set up a virtual account and allow that estimated monetary loss to be recirculated back into the economic system in the form of virtual tender in the account of the failed business to spend only on research and development. The failed business can use the cash to develop advanced products for sell. The failed business is then free to spend the profits gained by the newly developed products for personal gain of that business. The bussiness can pay a small tax on the money gained to support the goverment. The oil companies will be satisfied for no inventions can put them out of business on account that any losses acruid by the oil companies as a result of alternate energy sources can be claimed by the oil companies in the form of virtual cash for them to spend on other products such as computers and etc. The more worthy competition the oil companies gain the more money the oil companies gain which is true for everyone. The oil companies will promote the development of advanced tachnologies both on their own and by supporting the competition. Everyones losses will be everyones gains. We can still allow the current money system be usable but can also allow for monetary systems to be kept on massive computer acounts in the form of supercomputers. By having this set up we will use the natural human trait of greed to reinforce our development and in the mean time decrease the crime rate by allowing all persons to have the right to purchase shares of a given business through the stock market. I bet that we if this system will allow every one to gain that we would have no problem getting people to sign petitions to bring this bill before congress. So what does everyone think? Is this a good idea? Don't hold back now?

 
Hmmm.

The more I read rgrunt, the more I tend to have respect for him as a person. I started out being very critical of him, but in the end...

He makes no outlandish claims, only speculations and the reasons he makes them. All in all, this seems quite clear to me and not the least bit confusing.

Whether one agrees with him or not is beside the point. That's in individual right. But his pronounements are by his own admission, speculative and as such, come across in an open minded sense. It doesn't appear to me he's trying to "snow" anybody. I can't say the same for all others here.

And his thoughts on energy levels relative to Time Travel seem to be right on topic as far as Paradoxes are concerned. i.e. - Maybe Time Travel is possible IF enough energy can be generated and contained/controlled. But that's the paradox. So far, we have no way to do this. Maybe we never will, maybe we can solve it. But a "Paradox" is only ever really that. Failure to understand a problem that seems unsolvable, or the realization that there never was a problem in the first place.

As I've said before, "Paradox" is an invention of the mind, not something that ever actually occurs in Nature or the Universe. They only SEEM that way to us due to lack of understanding.

 
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TTA:

May I politely offer that perhaps the reason you think this thread is getting "lame" is that at the moment it is not filled with folks who simply take someone else at their word when they make claims of what they can do.

How is this any different from TT_1 making claims and then sidestepping all attempts to get him him to show verifiable evidence to back them up?

If one requires gullibility in others to be successful in one's arguments, then the arguments can't have much merit in the first place.

The solution to Time travel, (if there is one), requires solid scientific investigation, verification, and publication of said verifiable results for confirmation by others qualified to do so.

As yet, there is little of that going on here.

 
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oookkaaayyy .

I'm an Activist, or did you forget that. If you boys and girls can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.

I post what I think is another side you people are over looking. And from the sounds of your posts, your completely oblivious to perceiving that side.

If it wasn't for me on this thread, you wouldn't have asked TT_0 the questions I did. And for that, he is now backed down.

Why? Who knows? Maybe he realizes any further comments on my part, such as ones he cannot answer will hinder his fantasy role playing.

Don't get me wrong, I like fantasy stuff. But if he is what he says, he will answer my comments and show us proof. I would if I could.

Now let me ask you something, did you think about seeing it that way?

-Javier C.

 
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TimeTravelActivist

Quote: "I am an activist, or did you forget that........"

Are you sure your don't mean "agitator"?

Quote2: "But if he (TT_O) is what he says, he will answer my coments and show proof. I would if I could."

Right guy, "*I* would if I could." Does the word LAME have any meaning for you? When are *you* going to prove *your* story? Never thats when. But I'm sure that won't stand in the way of your coninuing to run your mouth.

 
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Man Shadow, you sound like a real @$$-hole in that last post you know. At least the others said their peace with a little respect.

I have been trying not to attack anyone since my return. And look at you, you hypocrite. Calling me an "agitator."

So what would you have had me say? I have often times attempted to speak of my experiences and try to make sense of them. If I could somehow, find some way to prove to people of what I am going through is for real, believe me I would.

Why is it so hard for someone to prove something if he can? Especially more when he claims he's what he is.

Roel van Houten,

What vauge stories are you talking about? Can you point one out to me, please ?

DaViper,

Gullible people? Not in here... you must be mistaken.

-Javier C.

[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 15 January 2001).]

 
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TTA:

I don't think I accused anyone of being gullible here have I? I've stated what I think that term means, and how it pertains to those who allow others to get away with any argument in an unquestioned manner. I don't believe I've pointed a finger at anyone in particular tho.

Frankly, in my opinion the board is LESS lame when it contains sceptics who keep the conversation going in a speculative manner, rather than when it becomes a forum for any one person to direct the conversation while all others simply nod in agreement.

If a soultion to Time Travel is EVER to be found, it will come from stimulated debate, which fosters creative thought and experimentation, not "preaching to the choir".

This may be fun and all for problems that have already been solved, but Time Travel has not. Not to any degree that satisfies MY scepticism anyway. This is not to say I declare it to be impossible. But I DO think thought in other than the traditional directions (Time Machines, Parallel Universes, etc.) is in order to reach a solution if there is one. The aforementioned are merely old ways of conceptualizing it that have ultimately produced, well, nothing. In the way of any PROOF that is.

I doubt seriously that the answer lies in EITHER of these two approaches. But, I COULD be wrong about that.

Thanks for your response.

 
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P.S. TTA:

As far as your personal experiences are concerned, I'm not critisizing what you say you experience. You sound like a genuine person to me who is relating what you feel and even the sometimes confusion you feel by having had these experiences. That in itself speaks to your credibility.

Since I have not had the experiences you have, I can't comment either way. It would seem that your experiences suggest that Time Travel is more a spiritual experience than an actual physical one, but even that which can be described as the "spiritual" side of each of us as individuals, remains undefined itself does it not.

Ergo, I cannot dismiss them nor can I accept them out of hand. No critisism intended there. Just ponderance of the fact that to me they are "interesting".

 
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Thanks DaViper,

For clearing things up for me, and for others on this board as well (hopefully).

Basically that's what I mainly been trying to get across in my recent posts. That we shouldn't go along with what someone says. I have only been asking the questions, no one has bothered to ask.

And that upset-ted a few people, forgive me folks...

Hence my little sarcasm in that last comment I made to you; "Gullible people? Not in here... you must be mistaken." Get it ?

Nevertheless, it's not my place to try and convince people about my experiences. Cause it's never been about that, it's always been about being critical of Time Travel, and Time Travelers intentions. Some how someone keeps bringing up something about my experiences, and that I can't prove anything, so why am I even talking if I can't prove anything my self, is the point someone's been trying to impose on me.

So then, the topic isn't about my comments of my last post anymore, but of what someone criticized me on. Then everyone gets to talking about it, as if this is what I am trying to convince others about. huuuaggh.

It makes a big mess, it confuses everything. I haven't made any stories, nor have I even spoken of my experiences. Yet, it may sound like I did because that's what everyones talking about. Further more, I would like to see if we can go back before all this confusion started. It was when I posted a few comments for TT_O to respond, say about 4 days ago.

They were about his intentions as a Time Traveler. Ethical, or not? Disregarding his own Time line by spilling the beans. Says alot, don't you think.

Sincerely,

Javier C.

 
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P.S. You might be wondering why the new name. Well I got the idea for this name after playing this cool RPG game. "The Wheel of Time." Just thought I use a new name, as a change of pace.

------------------

"For what was, for what is, and for what will be. I will fight for it's preservation."

 
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In the post that follows, I’ve tried to answer the latest questions directed at me but I am hoping you all may be able to add some insight into something I’ve noticed. In our attempt to communicate here, some of the comments on this board have become increasingly hostile and negative. I see the same type of interaction when I watch news interview programs. The guise of productive interaction and communication is thwarted by illogical verbal attacks and misdirection. I understand why the news does it. They are trying to hold an audience by generating conflict. For a while, I thought that was the goal here too but it appears that anger and conflict is being created on this site to cause genuine harm and pain.

Its hard for me to believe that this is being done on purpose so I have concluded I simply do not understand some hidden element of your collective social interaction. On the other hand, if its being done for no reason, I would understand a little better how people in this time could accomplish so much and yet be so vulnerable to their emotions and fears. I think it was Thomas Jefferson who believed that the only way to sway opinion was through calm, respectful, intelligent conversation.

Weather I’m a time traveler or not, I suppose there are numerous ways to view my “story”. By the nature of the communication medium, I believe it’s impossible to prove therefore it’s impossible to believe. I agree that conversation spurs ideas. If I’m not a time a time traveler, than perhaps the seemingly disjointed statements I make will actually create the idea in one of you that leads to “real” time travel.

((What is a WORLDLINE?))

Individual worldlines represent the limits and paths physical objects take through space-time under the laws of special relativity. They can be shown graphically on an x-y graph with x representing distance in space and y representing passing of time. In time travel talk, worldlines are used as a way to describe and separate the experiences of a time traveler because various laws of special relativity appear to breakdown and can’t be defined on a single worldline. Worldline has also become synonymous with "alternate universe" and / or "time line".

((I see you take things from this world to bring back to your own world. books, computers what have ya. as well as probably the other TT do as well.

Do you pay for those items? or do you just "steal" them?

what do you pay with if you pay?))

I pay for these items with money. Personally, I believe stealing is wrong.

((…could not a TT (time traveler)basically take whatever they wanted from any time?))

There are mass limits to what can be taken back.

((… do you have to take psychological tests before you are chosen? what attributes should a time traveler have in your opinion?))

Yes, there are numerous psychological tests. I was chosen based on my educational background and military service. The training lasted about two years. There is a great deal of physical training to counter the physical effects of distortion. They were also looking for drivers who had a fair amount of self-sufficiency and an ability to function under extreme isolation and confinement.

((What are some things they look for when they chose someone for a mission?))

Depending on the mission, time travelers are usually chosen for a particular mission based on their ability to gain the cooperation of someone related to the goal on the target worldline. In my case, my grandfather was directly involved with the building and programming of the 5100.

((If they pick a bad seed by mistake and send them time traveling and that person does harm is there anyway they can go after that person? I am curious about all of this.))

Interesting question. There is a difference of philosophy between us that should be clarified. Since I believe that all possible outcomes and events are possible, probable and certain, it is impossible to assign “goodness” or “badness” to a person or situation. On some other worldline, I am an insane time traveler causing destruction and death while TTA chases me with his band of devoted followers. However, on this one, I am not. Since both events are certain, their value is neutral.

Therefore, you can only assign goodness and badness to the events and experiences you have direct control over or witness. Only actions are good and bad, not people or things. I suppose if I was a psychotic killer, I could accomplish my mission, avoid capture and still return to my worldline of origin without penalty. There would be no way for them to know what happened. However, I believe that action is wrong and I would be accountable to my God.

((Interesting, if you are from the future, you could tell us just exactly what IT is. Since no one will know for sure until probably 2002 according to news reports. The picture that I saw on ABCNEWs.com of what they thing IT is did not seem to impressive.))

I suppose this question is my own fault. As a time traveler, I am expected to know every winning horse and hot stock as well as the weather in all parts of the world at all times. I was genuinely interested in your opinion of how “IT” was being presented and advertised. Do you feel manipulated? Do you think it’s really a big deal? Do you like the way the news is dealing with it?

((…didnt TT_0 say in a previous post that we were looked down on by future generations, if he is from a "parellel timeline",how would he know this??))

This worldline and my own are almost exactly alike.

((How is this any different from TT_1 making claims and then sidestepping all attempts to get him to show verifiable evidence to back them up?))

Did you mean TT_0 or TT_1?

((They were about his intentions as a Time Traveler. Ethical, or not? Disregarding his own Time line by spilling the beans. Says alot, don't you think.))

How do you think my actions here affect my own worldline?

((P.S. You might be wondering why the new name. Well I got the idea for this name after playing this cool RPG game. "The Wheel of Time." Just thought I use a new name, as a change of pace.))

Is the “The Wheel of Time” one of those “fantasy” role-playing games you mentioned earlier?

 
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TT_0,

Ok man, I have to had it to you. Your smart, and know how to please a crowd. But you have to admit that your coming here and saying your a Time Traveler is a bit suspect. I know, that you have a hidden agenda. You have not made clear your motives, and are only giving us very little proof. Why you holding back...?

I still believe your buying into people's fascination. Your a good study in communications and science, and know how to handle upsets very well.

(You sure your not some corporate PR guy).?

Which is probably why so many people believe your story. But your not Anti-Time Travel like me. None of you have ever been manipulated by a Time Travelers plan for 21 years.

Which is not to say they are, and you just don't know it.

Am I right, TT_0? You do alot of work in the background of our society, admit it. Adjusting things to fit your futures agenda. That's the only reason you can ever have an interest in the past.

You know, I don't know why you keep making me look like the bad guy here. After all, what have I done but just ask you some critical questions. And you respond by saying that all future TTA are trying to murder you. I'm not you, I believe in a criminal justice system. I wasn't trained to kill, like you were.

What are your personal beliefs TT_0? You said you believe in God, which one? Honestly, do you think the ends justifies the means? Don't you have people regulating Time Travel?

You said your self you don't care what happens to your worldline. You don't care about your actions, and what they will affect?

You are a cheater of life... What ever happened to preservering against adversity? You take back home the solution, without trying to handle it there. And in that, you threaten to change billions of lives. And that strikes you as no big deal?

And what's worse, I am the only one on this board who has enough moral sense to see that as wrong. Watch, someone is going to attack me now.

So is there any such thing as wrong for you TT_0 while in the past that you are forbidden to do, or is it all just a free for all?

Yes, actually The Wheel of Time is a fantasy role playing game. Don't you have Final Fantasy XVIII out in 2036?

Truly,

Javier C.

 
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RE: Ugliness on the board:

TT_O shouldn't an historian-anthropolagist, even an amateur, be a bit more up to speed on psychology? There is no big mystery here. It is simple. Some people get off on telling others what to do. Others get sick of listening to it. I'd like to say here that the 'some people' I refer to, know who they are. But I'm not sure they do.

Here is a theory for you. "This whole board is a communist plot to send thinking people home doubting their sanity". (And this where you say "you don't know the half of it pal ! ")

 
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Although I do not post here often, I do enjoy the thoughtful discussions and mind challenging questions that arise...

The spiritual aspect of TT_O 's discussions and presentations have been especially interesting, given my interests.

*smiling* I chuckled at the perception of time and the knowing not with God... some concepts are indeed timeless.

Everyone needs a devil's advocate...someone to muddy up the waters...it creates an atmosphere where belief is supported by the interaction of faith, a sense of knowing, and the physical reality we each experience daily...

If we are not challenged and nudged to think beyond accepted thought, then we can not create opportunities to broaden our scope of thinking... thus experiencing.

Perhaps we do not all agree on the process by which the challenge and nudge are laid down...yet there is inherent value in all things.

Be safe and dream sweetly.

WS

 
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Hey Enforcer, we have some good time travel games here in the present. Ever played Chrono Trigger? That's where I got my name from.

 
Alright!

For me, this is all beginning to work now in the manner I hope everyone has intended it to. Yup. It's gettin' "curiouser and curiouser".

Enforcer: (cool name. Choose what you like, I'll run with that. And I think I'll stay DaViper for a while.)

You are right. Once everyone comes around to admitting that none of us has the answer, we can cut to the chase of REALLY seeing if we can find one. And I know we ALL would like to find one or we wouldn't be here in the first place would we.

TT_0:

I stand corrected. I mis-typed your handle and it came out TT_1 by mistake. I appologize for that.

I also stand by my assesment of what I see you doing. No offense. I've checked your web site and will say that I think the SITE is well done and interesting. But I cannot surrender my opinion that it is Fiction as you have always intended it to be. And not that bad at that.

I see you as a person who is utilizing fiction to express your opinions as to how the problem of time Travel COULD be solved. OK. As I've said before, this board itself is presented as "fiction" in the first place, as it states right on the Home Page. But... does THAT stop us from contemplating the possibilities that we ALL would like to explore. On the contrary! It stimulates them. The Web Authors here have accomplished their goal in getting the topic off the ground for discussion. It's a great site. I personally have been visiting it for over two years now under various handles.

(I'll stick with "DaViper" for now.)

So...

Since (to me anyway), the topics of "Time Machines" and "Parallel Universes" have been beaten to death, how about exploring other possibilities as to a possible solution, since these two ALWAYS lead to SOME form of Paradox which I hope we all agree CAN'T be so by the very nature of the simple fact that the Universe contains NO Paradoxes.

In short, I think there is something awry with ALL of our thinking, including MINE. But I can't put my finger on just what it is.

Peace to all.

 
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Just some commentary...

WanderingSoul,

I don't know where you learned it, but it sure is affective.

Crono,

Thanks for reminding me, I gotta find the EMU file for it.

Fast,

Do you know where I can find out what station he will be airing on in my location?

TT_0, care to answer my questions this time?I made sure to put lots of ??? so I wouldn't get excuses that they weren't any.

And Shadow, I don't know what to think about you. You sound awfully cold.

Good night,

Javier C.

 
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(( I know, that you have a hidden agenda. You have not made clear your motives, and are only giving us very little proof. Why you holding back...?))

Rest assured there is nothing I have planned in my “hidden agenda” that will make anyone’s life any worse than it already might be.

((Am I right, TT_0? You do alot of work in the background of our society, admit it. Adjusting things to fit your futures agenda. That's the only reason you can ever have an interest in the past.))

I plan to leave soon. There is nothing I can do here that will affect my home. My goals are based on the love I have for my family. Actually, my inertest in the past is a result of going through piles of half burned books and magazines left over from a war started by people you share this planet with right now. On that note, perhaps its more interesting to consider what I won’t be doing to try and stop that war.

((I wasn't trained to kill, like you were.))

---> Well it's a good thing I got injured in the Army, or else that might have been my fate as well. <--- I could have sworn you mentioned you were in the army?

((What are your personal beliefs TT_0? You said you believe in God, which one? Honestly, do you think the ends justifies the means? Don't you have people regulating Time Travel?))

How many Gods are there? I believe in just one. What are your suggestions for regulating time? Perhaps a list of your “time rights” would be something to spark conversation on the board.

((You said your self you don't care what happens to your worldline. You don't care about your actions, and what they will affect?))

I’m not sure I ever said I didn’t care about my own worldline. If you could find and quote that, I would appreciate it.

((You are a cheater of life... What ever happened to preservering against adversity? You take back home the solution, without trying to handle it there. And in that, you threaten to change billions of lives. And that strikes you as no big deal?))

I think I understand what you’re asking. I’m just guessing that “cheater of life” is not a compliment. I can’t think of a reason why my actions would be immoral and someone else’s would not. You suggest I’m capable of changing lives. I suggest that I’m no more capable of that than you are. I’m just not so sure you recognize your own potential. You don’t need a time machine to save or destroy people. If there was another person doing the exact same things I was but they didn’t have a time machine, would they be putting billions of lives at stake and suffer your judgment?

((So is there any such thing as wrong for you TT_0 while in the past that you are forbidden to do, or is it all just a free for all?))

Yes, I believe in wrong and right. I judge my actions based on God’s law. Is it wrong for me to murder? Yes it is. Is it wrong for me to teach someone how to defend themselves and they commit murder? No, I am not their keeper. Since I am leaving, I will be incapable of causing any harm. But, what damage will you do with anything I have said?

((Yes, actually The Wheel of Time is a fantasy role playing game. Don't you have Final Fantasy XVIII out in 2036?))

Yes, we have games.

((TT_O shouldn't an historian-anthropolagist, even an amateur, be a bit more up to speed on psychology?))

I apologize. I am learning all the time and I wish I were smarter too. You must remember that reading about a society is one thing and being exposed to it is another.

((TT_0, care to answer my questions this time?I made sure to put lots of ??? so I wouldn't get excuses that they weren't any.))

I was not trying to offer excuses. Please forgive my ignorance. I was unaware that question marks were optional.

 
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