Past-Present-Future

[Cryosleeper]

Howdy All

I was thinking about a comment that Steven Hawkings made last year when he stated that he sent out invitations to time travelers to come join a party that he was throwing and no one showed up to his party, so he came to the conclusion that time travel cannot be possible into the past.

I have a problem with that line of thinking, in my mind the future has not happened yet and since the future has not happened yet and since here in the present we have not invented a time travel device then how could Steven Hawkings believe that future beings would be able to visit us here in the present?

The only way that I could envision that time travelers from the future could visit us here in the past or our present would be if we were somehow we are in a closed time loop as what was shown in the movie "Ground Hog Day". If that is the case, then are we have all died and are just living the same life times over and over again.

I am assuming that time travelers are human beings from earth and not some alien time travelers. So, Is there another way that future time travelers could visit us here in our present time or in the time traveler frame of reference it would be their past without us being in a closed time loop?

I also like what Ken was refering to when he stated that he believes that UFO's are actually time travelers, but then again, we are encased with the same problem that if indeed UFO's are time travelers from the future, then how can that be since our future has not happen yet?

I believe that UFO's can be one of five possible explainations as shown below:

1st - Aliens from another planet who are here to investigate the human race.
2nd - Time Travelers from the future who are here to witness historial events.
3rd - Past humans who have died and entered the afterlife dimension and are working to bridge
the gaps between the afterlife dimension and this dimension.
4th - Goverment cover-up.
5th - Hoax's from people trying to gain fame and attention.

I hoping that one day here in the near future, we will be able to determine what UFO's actually are and hopefully may find that they maybe our clue into how to construct working time machine.

Chime in and give your views.

 

[astroboyuk]

yes Hawkings statement had to be a bit tounge in cheek... its like the first USSR cosmonaut entering space and, saying, I dont see God up here, therefore he doesnt exist.

Im sympathetic to the UFO's being time travellers theory... but you have to wonder about their choice of places to go view things. Far too many end up in rural USA disturbing the livestock! Keeping a low profile is one thing, but dont these guys have a passport?

I also a agree with your possible explanations - though the 5th is probably at the top most of the time... I'd also add a asterix to the 5th to include people who simply make genuine mistakes about what they thought they saw. Not all are disengenuous.

Its interesting that for the 3 great folk-mysteries of our time - UFO's, Time TRavellers, and BigFoot... all three are desperately short of hard evidence, but very passionately believed in in some form... (me included).

Its surprising our incredulity in such an educated era hasnt pushed these mysteries further into the margins really.

 

[Skarpz]

Cryosleeper:"The only way that I could envision that time travelers from the future could visit us here in the past or our present would be if we were somehow we are in a closed time loop as what was shown in the movie "Ground Hog Day". If that is the case, then are we have all died and are just living the same life times over and over again."

I know two people with just that same belief and her belief is that we could live other lives over again even if they were the son or daughter of who you were before. I don't understand the belief fully but it's kind of I think living it over if you until you learn. It's like you are doomed to repeat your entire life over and over again. I don't know how much I can explain of it since I just heard of this for the first time in the summer of last year.

 

[Darby]

...if indeed UFO's are time travelers from the future, then how can that be since our future has not happen yet?

First, throw out the UFO idea entirely. It's irrelevent as to whether time travelers are humans from Earth or non-humans from some other galaxy. The issue is time travel by any means from any place in the universe regardless of the gene pool that creates it. The laws of physics are, as far as we know, the same everywhere in the universe. That's's not just a qualified guess. It is based on our observation of the universe by astronomers and cosmologists. Every observation and experiment ever made finds the statement to be true. That's why I say UFO's are irrelevent.

Second, look at your statement. There's a logical error in it. Past and future are relative terms depending on the local timespace coordinates of the person who is looking at the situation. Can one time travel to the past? If the answer is yes then the logical error is in play. The person time traveling to the past arrives at that destination from the occupants of that era's future. He traveled to his past. He arrived from their future. The future, from their perspective, apparently does exist.

 

[Darby]

So, Is there another way that future time travelers could visit us here in our present time or in the time traveler frame of reference it would be their past without us being in a closed time loop?

Now you're asking an interesting question.

Part of the answer is that "we" would not be caught in a closed timelike curve ("closed time loop"). The time traveler did not warp our spacetime in order to make his trip. He had to warp spacetime surrounding himself only.

But this situation brings up an interesting point. Instead of time traveling decades or centuries to into the past what if he remains virtually at the same location (in his laboratory) and time travels an hour into his past? He should meet himself in his own laboratory while he is setting up his gadget in preparation for his journey. What if he stays there for the entire hour and watches his doppleganger activate the machine? Logically, he should see the ganger and gadget vanish and he moves on with the standard flow of time. But the ganger, when he arrives on hour in the past, should see both of his other selves in the lab when he arrives one hour in the past. In fact, logically, he should see an intinite number of himselves in the lab if the loop still exists. This would not be a good thing to occur, would it? Aside from the obvious fact that the laboratory would be just a little crowded, we have an infinite mass confined to a finite volume of space. That local mass density is...infinitely...greater than the Schwarzschild metric that requires such a mass to collapse to a black hole. It is a neutrally charged and non-spinning mass so there is no escape for the ganger time travelers. The Shark's Teeth awate all of him at the singularity. His laboratory and the entire Milky Way plus a good portion of the universe around us would likewise be in a pickle - more Shark's Teeth.

 

[Darby]

2nd - Time Travelers from the future who are here to witness historial events.

This is problematic. Our "time travelers" often come and state that they are here just to observe history for whatever reason.

In experimental design they would be conducting either an observational study or field experiment, which is also simply observational. The problem is that the researcher always finds it somewhere between difficult and impossible to conduct the study without inserting him/herself into the experiment, even if it is in the seemingly most innocous manner. Real field scientists do their best to limit and hopefully account for their imposition on events.

Now, with our TT's how did we learn that they were here just to observe? They posted as much. They posted! Let's make a couple of assumptions in this scenario and see where they lead.

Our brave adventurer who posted that he is only here to observe says he comes from 200 years into our future. He posts for two weeks (which is typically how long they last here). During that time "Joe", a member of the forum, gets involved with the thread and makes several posts each night. When the TT is finished and vanishes Joe is finished posting for a while.

Let's say that our TT was the real deal and from future Earth, not some other planet. Two hundred years from now there are specific inhabitants of this rock. Each has a name, face and family. Birth records going back hundreds, even thousands, of years are kept and available 200 years from now. If we could somehow look at the records in the future we see that Joe met his future wife on such and such date. They had X children [fill in their names here] who in turn met their future spouse, married, had children, who married, had children and so on for the next seven generations.

In that history Joe literally "ran into" his future wife quite by accident. A chance meeting - not at all planned. They did not know each other before than incident.

Along comes our TT posting on this forum. On the very night and at the very time that the "original" histiory has Joe meeting his future wife he is, instead, fully involved posting here with our brave adventurer who is here only to observe, not to make, history. He misses his date with destiny. He ends up marrying someone else. His "original" wife also meets and marries someone else. An entirely different set of children and granschildren are born to all of these people. None of the "original" grand, great-grand and great-great-grand children are ever born. The people whom they would have married also either meet and marry someone else or, in later generations, are never born.

Seven Degrees of Seperation. With this situation, after just seven generations of humanity, 200 years later, it is very likely that not a single person on planet Earth listed in the "original" history exists. Our time traveler, paradoxically, is likely himself to have no parents and was never been born according to the occupants of Earth 200 years from now.

There's no such animal as a completely sterile, passive observational study.

 

[Skarpz]

I have a similar personal story with the meeting wife thing and someone saying that they were a time traveller. I don't know if i would be with the person if I didn't get that message even though I still wanted to date her. It was also a turn of events where if I didn't take this one class then I would have never met her but I wasn't told that in the message. I still met her and my course went on.