Who believes that time travel is possible?

[Corcoran]

Just wondering how many people here actually believe that time travel could be possible.

I believe that time travel can currently be undertaken through astral projection. As to whether it is possbile for mankind to one day build a physical device capable of transporting people into the past or into the future, I can't say for certain, but I like to think that it is possible, however remote.

 

[Twighlight]

I believe that time travel can currently be undertaken through astral projection. As to whether it is possbile for mankind to one day build a physical device capable of transporting people into the past or into the future, I can't say for certain, but I like to think that it is possible, however remote.

The problem is, from a scientific perspective, that there is a serious flaw in such thinking.

It implies that astral projection is 'not physical'. If that is the case...then how does something that is not physical interact with the physical world ? The very definition of 'physical' is existence and interaction with the rest of the world. It is thus a complete logical contradiction to have a non-physical object interact with the physical world.

The biggest problem with 'astral' stuff is that if it cannot be weighed or measured or found to interact electromagnetically ( which it would HAVE to do for an astral body to 'see' the world ) then what conceivable evidence can there ever be that it exists ?

Something that cannot be scientifically demonstrated to exist seems an awful lot to me to have exactly the same characteristics as something that doesn't exist at all.

 

[Darby]

Corcoran,

I believe that time travel can currently be undertaken through astral projection.

Give a concrete example where this has occured and where it has been repeated thereafter with "non-believer" witnesses.

 

[Skarpz]

Give a concrete example where this has occured and where it has been repeated thereafter with "non-believer" witnesses.

I don't believe that a concrete example can happen and if it does it would be very rare. I think it would be very difficult to prove something like this to be true even if it was true and time travel could be possible through astral projection it would be more like a prophecy. Then the events would have to be proven before it happened and it's not like you can take something physical with you from wherever you went. I just don't see how there could be evidence with something like astral projection even if it did work.

 

[Darby]

I don't believe that a concrete example can happen and if it does it would be very rare. I think it would be very difficult to prove something like this to be true even if it was true and time travel could be possible through astral projection it would be more like a prophecy. Then the events would have to be proven before it happened and it's not like you can take something physical with you from wherever you went. I just don't see how there could be evidence with something like astral projection even if it did work.

That's all well and good...but it sounds more like an excuse than an answer. It didn't even attempt to answer the question(s). I didn't ask for proof. I asked if there is any testimony from a "non-believer" that substantiates such claims and if there is any similar testimony from a witness of multiple events.

The reason that I asked for testimony from non-believers might seem obvious but it does bear justification. Duke University had the first school of paranormal studies in the USA though it is no more. One real big problem with the school was the recruitment process for the student-researchers. Only those who "believe" need apply. So much for attempts to eliminate researcher bias. In the end, and it was truly the end as a university research department, they always found what they were looking for - even if they had to fudge the data (and they did). They managed to proove two things: the students believed in the paranormal and the unbiased analysis of thirty years of data showed no effect beyond randomness.

 

[Skarpz]

Well, something that happened to me is that in a dream I saw a scene and didn't know what to think of it at the time, but a couple weeks later the scene happened in reality. I didn't know what to think of it and it could be mere coincidence, but it happened none the less. Am I a believer? Don't really know. Is there a witness? How can there be? It was in my dream and someone else could only witness the scene and not the dream. So having a witness could be difficult. And I guess I could only pull it off as being deja vu or something like that.

Hopefully that gives closer to an answer than an excuse.

 

[Corcoran]

Give a concrete example where this has occured and where it has been repeated thereafter with "non-believer" witnesses.

Unfortunately I can't do that. All I can give is testimony from those I have spoken to who have told me they have managed to travel through time through astral projection. I know that you won't see that as being "enough" and I understand why. However, I trust those who have related their experiences to me.

A friend of mine whom I know from school has been interested in paranormal and metaphysical matters for several years and he told me that he has, on several occasions while projecting, travelled back into the 1970s and viewed our hometown as it was then. He has nothing to gain by lying about something like this and it is clear that he genuinely believes in what he is saying and really believes that he has had these experiences.

Either he's wrong, in which case he's misguided, or he's right, and has had these experiences. I believe that he has had these experiences, which is why I believe that time travel is possible through astral projection.

I can't give concrete evidence, as I said, all I have to go on is testimonials by those that I trust.

 

[Corcoran]

Also, to go back to my original question, how many of you think that time travel could be a possibility?

 

[EricCarr1]

I think we all believe that it's possible. That's why we visit this little URL on the web.

I would love for some person to come here and blow our minds with a Time Travel tale and be the real deal. I mean if someone would of showed up three months ago and predicted the Oil Spill in the Gulf Of Mexico with exact detail. It would of been the ultimate time travel story here.


The truth is, I think if they walk among us, we would never know it. I don't believe they would expose themselves to the world. That's why I find it hard to believe any real time traveller would post on the internet with any truth to his real travels.

 

[Twighlight]

I know that you won't see that as being "enough" and I understand why. However, I trust those who have related their experiences to me.

I don't doubt for one minute that people have such experiences. I have even had an 'out of the body experience' myself way back in 1974......so I know such things do happen.

The true crux of the matter is whether such things are REAL. Is a person genuinely leaving their body, or is it all just illusion.

The problem with the 'real' hypothesis is that other than a few anecdotal stories....there is virtually zero scientific evidence.

There are also major physics problems with astral projection. An astral body clearly must be made of SOMETHING. It cannot be neutral particles like neutrinos, because it would then not interact with ( and be able to see ) light. But equally, if it is made of charged particles.......it should not be able to travel through things like walls etc.

The only possible mechanism I can envisage is some form of 'quantum superposition'. A situation analogous to the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment. BUT....that in turn runs into the problem that an astral projection is clearly not a 'closed' or unobserved system in the form of the Schrodinger's Cat experiment. There would be immediate 'decoherence' ( the term used when quantum systems decide one probability or another ) as the astral body observed the outside world.

This is why scientists have such a hard time believing such phenomenon are 'real'. There just doesn't seem to be a mechanism for it, or the physics or particles for it.

 

[Corcoran]

I have even had an 'out of the body experience' myself way back in 1974......so I know such things do happen.

I'd be interested to know what happened, could you go into some detail?

 

[Twighlight]

I'd be interested to know what happened, could you go into some detail?

Yes, it was July 1974. I was only 16 and still living at home....was just about to start college. I had a little observatory set up in the back garden, and would often be up all night with my telescope. At about 5am I went to lie down on the bed.....and something strange happened. I found myself moving sideways out of my body..towards the cabinet that was about 2 feet from the bed. I tried to reach out a hand to stop myself falling....as I was moving sideways and downwards.....and I found I didn't HAVE any hand to reach out ! I was just a pinpoint of existence.

Well...that scared me somewhat ( I wish it hadn't...as it might have lasted longer )....and in an instant I snapped back into my body. But for about 5 minutes there was a curious sensation of 'not being lined up' properly, and part of my vision was dark, as if my eyes were not lined up.

And that was basically it. The experience seemed totally 'real'.....and the perception was exactly what I would have had if I'd actually been moving.

So I know people who talk about 'out of the body' experiences are not making it up. The question is.......is it a 'real' phenomenon or just taking place all within the brain ? Bear in mind that our experience of the world is ALREADY a 'projection'. For example....when you 'see' the world 'out there'.....what you are actually seeing is activity in the back of your brain, that is projected so as to give the illusion of 'out there'.

There is a good deal of anecdotal evidence that something real is going on. Though people such as Dr Susan Blackmore ( one of the leading former researchers of the paranormal....now a sceptic ) has also had out of the body experiences and argues it is ALL in the mind...

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/

Despite the hideous hairdo.......she's actually very erudite on the whole subject, and well worth reading, as she presents many of the best sceptic arguments.

 

[Darby]

Is there a witness? How can there be? It was in my dream and someone else could only witness the scene and not the dream.

You took the meaning of the post a little too literally. I was speaking in general terms about witnesses rather than some specific incident involving you and a dream (which I obviously wasn't aware of when I posted).

 

[Darby]

Corcoran,

All I can give is testimony from those I have spoken to who have told me they have managed to travel through time through astral projection.

Exactly my point - and supported by the unbiased analysis of the Duke U data. The people expected positive results and found them. You are a Believer therefore if you read somewhere, posted by virtually anyone, that s/he has accomplished time travel through "astral projection" then it must be true.

Problems: Define "astral projection". If there are other terms that use words in a way not normally associated with the literal meaning, define those terms. Then show me an astral projector that can be tested with instruments that record the effects.

Now, I can anticipate the answer - something along the lines of these sorts of things can't be detected because the astral plane is [................................] And it must be true because I read it on the Internet.

Fill in the blank with New Agey "stuff" that the poster has read somewhere on the Internet but never actually experienced first hand.

And that's why I posted to Skarpz "it sounds more like an excuse than an answer."

 

[Corcoran]

You are a Believer therefore if you read somewhere, posted by virtually anyone, that s/he has accomplished time travel through "astral projection" then it

The person that I referred to (who I know from school) is someone that I know in real life (and by that I mean offline, as opposed to online.) So it's not some post on a forum that I've found on the web somewhere, it's somebody that I actually know and used to go to school with.

And it must be true because I read it on the Internet.

Like I said, not all of what I have learned about astral projection is from the internet. Some of is, yes, but the rest is from books, and from people that I know offline, whom I have spoken to face-to-face. My point is, I'm not just picking up random stuff from the Internet, I explore other avenues as well.

Problems: Define "astral projection".

All right, I will try to define it (but don't you already know what astral projection is?)

Astral projection is the act of consciously leaving one's body. According to what I have read, people can also leave their bodies while asleep but since they are sleeping, they do so unconsciously and therefore can't remember the experience. Astral projection is when one is able to leave their body whilst being consciously awake.

Again, from what I have read and from what others have told me, when the individual leaves their body, they have a body termed as the astral body (usually on a first projection most people only manage to float above their bed and fly around their room for a bit. Sometimes when they look down at their physical body in the bed it has the effect of snapping them straight back into their physical body and thus ending the projection.) This astral body is connected to the physical body by what is described as a type of white cord.

From my reading on the subject, I have learned that projectors can both interact with the physical world/dimension and the astral plane/dimension. Robert Bruce, in his book Astral Dynamics, also spoke of what he described as "a buffer zone or intermediary area dividing the physical universe from the astral dimension proper." This he called the Real-Time Zone (or RTZ.)

Then show me an astral projector that can be tested with instruments that record the effects.

I will read up on some stuff and see if I can find any information about this. I haven't looked into astral projection tests a great deal, so I can't give you anything at the moment. I do believe that some experiments have been carried out in the past, though, so I'll see if I can find anything. I think Robert Monroe, who wrote several books about his out-of-body journeys, may have engaged in some form of experimentation to prove the reality of what was occurring, so I will look through his book and see what I can find.

Please understand though, Darby, that I am not basing what I say about astral projection from the Internet alone. Some of what I have read is from the web, yes, but I have also spoken face-to=face with people that I know personally about this topic and read books as well.

 

[Corcoran]

Im not sure about astro projection because I dont know of any theory that makes it work.

I've read that everyone has the ability to project and that the main way to make it work is simply to practice, practice, practice. There are numerous techniques that people have shared that they have found useful to assist them in leaving their body. One does have to be in a state of deep relaxation, very deep relaxation. A phrase that has been used for it is "mind awake, body asleep", i.e. mentally the person has to be awake but the body has to be in such a deeply relaxed state that it is in the condition it is in whilst asleep (even though the person is awake.)

 

[Twighlight]

From my reading on the subject, I have learned that projectors can both interact with the physical world/dimension and the astral plane/dimension.

Hmm.....the point I've tried to make several times is that there's a number of serious problems with this. It is WHY scientists don't believe in ghosts, astral bodies, etc :-

Quite simply, any elementary particle has a certain characteristic definition in terms of charge, spin, and interactiveness ( for example electromagnetic, gravitational, etc ).

Some particles interact strongly with the rest of the universe. Others....such as neutrinos, dark matter, etc, don't. Now you might conclude that 'astral' stuff must therefore be made of weakly interacting material.....which would have to be the case to be able to avoid gravity, go through walls, etc etc.

BUT...there then arises a major issue. Particles that interact weakly do so because they don't interact electromagnetically. Dark matter being a prime example....it has no electromagnetic interactions at all. That is WHY it is dark. Light does not interact with it. The same applies with neutrinos. A neutrino could pass through a piece of lead a light year thick....it ONLY interacts via the 'weak nuclear force'....does not interact with electrons at all so can pass right through matter.

The point being that ALL of the weakly interacting particles are such because they have no electromagnetic interactions......they do not interact with charged particles. And the problem is...in order to have vision you HAVE to have interaction with electrons ! It is the electrons in atoms that 'stop' the light..capture it. You cannot have vision without the light being captured in some way.

You then have a MAJOR paradox. An astral body CANNOT defy gravity, pass through walls, etc ( all signs of weakly interacting particles )...AND at the same time 'see' the world via vision ( which requires strong interactions and electromagnetism ).

Quite simply.....you CANNOT walk through a wall...and at the same time be able to SEE the wall !

 

[Darby]

According to what I have read, people can also leave their bodies while asleep but since they are sleeping, they do so unconsciously and therefore can't remember the experience.

Again, exactly my point. Here's how it sounds, "You see, these people told me that they consciously leave their bodies while unconscious and can't remember their experiences that they just described to me...but I won't question the fact that they were unconscious while they consciously left their bodies and didn't remember anything except, well, everything 'cause they told me all the details and stuff...so astral projection is consciously leaving your body unless you do it unconsciously but you won't know that you did that 'cause you're unconscious...*pant*...*gasp*...water!"

Yikes.

Nine-out-of-ten of these folks are still playing around with the Ouija Board, Dungeons & Dragons, sitting around and telling shocking true stories of the paranormal and macabre to impress the girls and the guys are hoping to get laid by a Wiccan "Sister Moon" chick, playing everyone dress-up in [....fill in the New Age style....] clothes exactly alike to show their individuality by looking...and...sounding...exactly...alike...kinda...like...the...1960's...when Sister Moon was living in a Teepee in Isla Vista's "Anisq' O'yo Park"

 

[Corcoran]

Again, exactly my point. Here's how it sounds, "You see, these people told me that they consciously leave their bodies while unconscious and can't remember their experiences that they just described to me...but I won't question the fact that they were unconscious while they consciously left their bodies and didn't remember anything except, well, everything 'cause they told me all the details and stuff...so astral projection is consciously leaving your body unless you do it unconsciously but you won't know that you did that 'cause you're unconscious...*

No, you have completely misunderstood what I was saying there. First of all, what do you mean by "consciously leave their bodies while unconscious?" That's a paradox and that's not what I said at all. What I said, was that people can leave their bodies whilst asleep but that is NOT astral projection, because their mind is unconscious at that time.

What is astral projection is when a person leaves their body while their mind is awake. And when that happens, Darby, people can, and do, remember their experiences. People who leave their bodies consciously are not unconscious at the time - I don't know where you got that from? When a person astral projects, their mind is consciously awake. Therefore, they remember what they experience.

As I said, I think you misinterpreted what I was saying there.

Also, I know I can trust those people that I know personally who have had such experiences.

P.S. Please forgive me if the tone of the post seems slightly worked up. It's just frustrating if what I write is misconstrued and plus it's early and I haven't had my morning's fill of caffeine yet.

 

[Twighlight]

Also, I know I can trust those people that I know personally who have had such experiences.

It matters not one iota whether people did or did not have 'experiences'. What matters is whether people really leave their bodies.

Just because some guy says ' I left my body' does not mean he genuinely did.....no matter how real the experience may have seemed to him. Whether people are trustworthy has nothing to do with it.........the issue is whether the experience is REAL.

As I said in my previous post, there are serious physics reasons for believing that such experiences CANNOT be real. Several basic laws of physics are violated....as I mentioned.

In addition to that, physicists have studied sub-atomic particles for almost 100 years now........and not once has any 'astral' material ever shown up. I know new-age people love to use jargon like 'higher vibrations' etc, but that is just pseudo science as they haven't the faintest idea what it is higher vibrations of.

All this poses a major problem, because if 'astral bodies' can interact with the world ( and seeing things means interacting ) then they OUGHT to be detectable. I would argue that 100 years of particle physics, without the detection of a single particle of 'astral' stuff.....leaves one with only one conclusion.