Who believes that time travel is possible?

[Skarpz]

What matters is whether people really leave their bodies.

When I saw this I was thinking of someone laying on a big weight scale bed to see if they weighed less when supposedly they left their bodies somehow. I mean that might work, but that's all I was thinking of and it's late here. So that's just what I was thinking when I saw that.

 

[eyecare74]

Quoting Darby

Duke University had the first school of paranormal studies in the USA though it is no more. One real big problem with the school was the recruitment process for the student-researchers. Only those who "believe" need apply.

supported by the unbiased analysis of the Duke U data. The people expected positive results and found them. You are a Believer therefore if you read somewhere, posted by virtually anyone, that s/he has accomplished time travel through "astral projection" then it must be true.

Problems: Define "astral projection". If there are other terms that use words in a way not normally associated with the literal meaning, define those terms. Then show me an astral projector that can be tested with instruments that record the effects.

Now, I can anticipate the answer - something along the lines of these sorts of things can't be detected because the astral plane is [................................] And it must be true because I read it on the Internet.

Fill in the blank with New Agey "stuff" that the poster has read somewhere on the Internet but never actually experienced first hand.

And that's why I posted to Skarpz "it sounds more like an excuse than an answer."

Darby, do you have anything other than this kid experiment? This Duke class you keep speaking of was a sham. After doing research, it is clear this was nothing more than underwater basket weaving. It was an easy class 18-21 year old kids took for an easy credit. This is the last place I would be looking for serious answers. Now I'm sure you will tear that apart, but I'm also sure you more than likely won't touch this next part. If there's one thing I noticed, is you tend to discredit easy or hypothetical quotes of people. If you have access and keep insisting on real data, talk to some of your peers about a little project called "Stargate". I will briefly touch on what is public knowledge. "Stargate" was a project transferred to the CIA from the Stanford Research Institute and about five other agencies. Now according to what you will read the project was cancelled and is no longer in use. Obviously, as a DoD employee, I will not go against this public perception. I will however state that remote viewing is very real, and the government spends billions of dollars each year on "black book" budget plans, so you do the math on that one. I will say nothing more on that subject because it is not my place to do so.
Quoting Twighlight

The true crux of the matter is whether such things are REAL. Is a person genuinely leaving their body, or is it all just illusion.

The problem with the 'real' hypothesis is that other than a few anecdotal stories....there is virtually zero scientific evidence

You are correct, and I will explain why under the Corcoran quote

Quoting Corcoran

Astral projection is the act of consciously leaving one's body. According to what I have read, people can also leave their bodies while asleep but since they are sleeping, they do so unconsciously and therefore can't remember the experience. Astral projection is when one is able to leave their body whilst being consciously awake.

Again, from what I have read and from what others have told me, when the individual leaves their body, they have a body termed as the astral body (usually on a first projection most people only manage to float above their bed and fly around their room for a bit. Sometimes when they look down at their physical body in the bed it has the effect of snapping them straight back into their physical body and thus ending the projection.) This astral body is connected to the physical body by what is described as a type of white cord.

What is astral projection is when a person leaves their body while their mind is awake. And when that happens, Darby, people can, and do, remember their experiences. People who leave their bodies consciously are not unconscious at the time - I don't know where you got that from? When a person astral projects, their mind is consciously awake. Therefore, they remember what they experience.

Corcoran, I am not going to discredit what your friends or family may have told you. I will say however that the term "Astral Projection" is nothing more than a bunch of hocus pocus new age crap. A person does not float outside their body like a ghost and wander around looking at things. The correct term is "remote viewing" and it has everything to do with what TimeCrime1986 talks about in the next quote.

Now this is on the right track, Quoting TimeCrime1986

I have practicesd deeply relaxed states before like this. It is called meditation. There are many types of meditation depending on what the person meditating is trying to do. I suppose astro projection could be a goal of meditation. I dont see why not. It is been used to control everything from mental and emotional states to controlling the body

"We" know remote viewing deals with certain brain waves. The exact mechanism is not quite understood though. It seems to be that when a person is between wakefulness and sleeping they can enter into a dream state while their conscious mind can remain alert, you can still control your thoughts in other words. The term "astral" was coined when some new age guy had a personal experience such as Twighlight had when he was young. The guy had no idea what he had experienced, told a bunch of his friends and they all figured they must have physically came out of their bodies and floated around on some astral plane. Many people have such experiences, but it has nothing to do with coming out of you body and all that bull crap. "We" do know a person can be trained through meditation to "semi" control these experiences. Is it real and is it accurate? Well, it is a matter of debate. There have been literally thousands of cases which have been about 90-95% accurate in detail. The problem is these events happen in real time, so they are not really helpful in military applications. They are more helpful when the subject of investigation will be stationary for a while. This is not something where I can just say, "oh, hang on, let me sit down real quick and do a remote viewing." This is how the project ended up mainly with the CIA, and not really the military, although the Air Force did use it to some degree for some bombing target information.

Now all this time travel stuff and viewing into the future I have no clue about. All this nonsense HDRkid and others talk about I would say is not real and is just a bunch of fantasy mess.

 

[Corcoran]

All this poses a major problem, because if 'astral bodies' can interact with the world ( and seeing things means interacting ) then they OUGHT to be detectable. I would argue that 100 years of particle physics, without the detection of a single particle of 'astral' stuff.....leaves one with only one conclusion.

Perhaps you are right (notice that I usually say that I believe in astral projection rather than stating it as a definite fact) but I would ask, would the laws of physics apply to spiritual phenomena? Or, to put it another way, isn't it possible, that spiritual and metaphysical phenomena could override the rules of physics?

To play devil's advocate, even if what was believed to be an OBE (out-of-body experience) really was just a trick of the mind, surely that would at least show that a person's mental capabilities are much more advanced than is generally presumed?

Also, my comments about being able to trust certain sources are more in response to Darby. I get the impression, Darby, that you appear to think that all of my sources of information are unreliable. I'm just trying to say that that isn't the case, some of my sources are people I know in person and that I know I can trust.

 

[RainmanTime]

I'm just trying to say that that isn't the case, some of my sources are people I know in person and that I know I can trust.

I am sure you can trust them to tell you what they experienced. But it is in getting that confused with trusting how they interpret what they experienced where things go awry. Trusting that they are telling you what they experienced is totally different from believing what they say is behind the experience, right?

To play devil's advocate, even if what was believed to be an OBE (out-of-body experience) really was just a trick of the mind, surely that would at least show that a person's mental capabilities are much more advanced than is generally presumed?

How, exactly, would it show that? You see, this is where a lack of scientific thinking CAN INDEED lead to you believing something is true when it is patently false. Speaking strictly from the way the scientific method is employed, all that the above shows is that the human mind can be tricked (and quite easily, as we all know). It certainly does not show any sort of "advanced mental capabilities" at all! And as I say, your presumption that it does tends to show your naivete with respect to science. (Do not take that as an insult, as you have even admitted as much)

Or, to put it another way, isn't it possible, that spiritual and metaphysical phenomena could override the rules of physics?

Extremely low possibility, so low as to be zero. The reason is because physics explains causality, right down to the eletrons flowing around your brain that CAUSE such hallucinations that people experience and intepret as a "spiritual experience." The bottom line is that you PHYSICALLY experienced something, and therefore there MUST be a PHYSICAL explanation behind it!

I am not sure you are fully comprehending what Twighlight has been trying to point out about physical vs. non-physical...
RMT

 

[Corcoran]

I am sure you can trust them to tell you what they experienced. But it is in getting that confused with trusting how they interpret what they experienced where things go awry. Trusting that they are telling you what they experienced is totally different from believing what they say is behind the experience, right?

Yes, you're correct about that. I simply got the impression that Darby was questioning the integrity of my sources. Perhaps they are misinterpreting what they have experienced, but I am just trying to point out to Darby that I do know some of my sources to be trustworthy, as, like I said, I got the impression (perhaps wrongly, but still) that he was questioning their integrity.

It certainly does not show any sort of "advanced mental capabilities" at all!

What I meant was that if the human mind is capable of imagining or hallucinating an experience where they go out of their body (or appear to) without having taken any kind of drug which would result in hallucinations of this kind - well, I personally would find that very impressive. Regardless of the fact that the mind is being tricked into perceiving it as an OBE, I would still think it remarkable that the mind can come up with such an extraordinary hallucination, so that would suggest to me, that there is some source of hidden, untapped power in the human mind which people are not aware of.

I am not sure you are fully comprehending what Twighlight has been trying to point out about physical vs. non-physical...

Maybe not, like I said, science isn't my strong point.

The reason is because physics explains causality, right down to the eletrons flowing around your brain that CAUSE such hallucinations that people experience

Which electrons would cause these hallucinations and how/why would this happen?

 

[Twighlight]

What I meant was that if the human mind is capable of imagining or hallucinating an experience where they go out of their body (or appear to) without having taken any kind of drug which would result in hallucinations of this kind - well, I personally would find that very impressive. Regardless of the fact that the mind is being tricked into perceiving it as an OBE, I would still think it remarkable that the mind can come up with such an extraordinary hallucination, so that would suggest to me, that there is some source of hidden, untapped power in the human mind which people are not aware of.

You are being 'tricked' every moment of your waking life.

That room you see in front of you.....is actually activity in the back of your brain. The brain does a splendid job of 'projecting' your vision as if what you see is external to you.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is to assume there is a one-to-one correlation between their conscious experience and the 'external world'. In fact there is none at all ! From an evolutionary viewpoint...consciousness does not NEED to experience THE external world ( and it cannot anyway )......all it needs is a self-consistent model of it.

One of the hardest things to explain to people is that the sky is NOT blue. The colour blue is something the brain made up...to represent an external wavelength. There is no blue outside of consciousness. The same applies to all our senses. Though there IS a 'correlation' between what we experience and the external stimulus....what we actually experience is NOT the external world but a totally made up sensation that exists within a MODEL of the external world ( our consciouness ).

The brain does this so well that we can go an entire lifetime under the illusion that all our senses are direct one-to-one experiences of what is 'out there'. They are not.

 

[RainmanTime]

Which electrons would cause these hallucinations and how/why would this happen?

The same electrons that create ALL of your sensations associated with being. See Twighlight's recent response above to fully understand what we are getting at.

You are taking an awful lot for granted. And this is all a result of having a slanted (non-scientific) view of what constitutes scientific evidence for seemingly "amazing" (paranormal) phenomena. You may very well be in a position to determine "what you believe" and "how what you believe makes you feel", but you are in no position to be able to determine what is "real" (truthful) and what is not, mostly because you do not have a fuller appreciation of how science works (what many call the Philsophy of Science). You should look into it... not a lot of equations, but rather LOTS of language and logic for what forms the foundations of the scientific method.

RMT

 

[Twighlight]

but I would ask, would the laws of physics apply to spiritual phenomena?

But that's half the problem. Define 'spiritual phenomena'. It's a term so vague as to be meaningless.

The problem spiritual 'stuff' has is that there's no evidence it actually exists. How does one define something nobody has ever weighed or measured or captured in a lab ? I mean....what's the difference between something that behaves as if it doesn't exist.......and something that DOESN'T exist ?

 

[Monkeybat]

I have never had much success meditating. But once every few months or so I have extremely vivid dreams as real as being there. Some of them seem to be prophetic and later come true to the exact detail, the most memorable one was finding an old senile lady in my back garden which later came true.

There have also been some vivid dreams where I have found myself in the past during my childhood where I of course instantly started thinking about how I could use my knowledge of the future to enrich myself. But I awoke back in the present day before I could enact those plans, but they did leave quite an impression on me as sudenly finding yourself inside a weedy little childs body is an interesting experience.

Reading the story of Queen Jane the Nine Day Queen I found myself getting unusually emotionally affected and over the next several weeks had several dreams that I was her. I wondered whether that was a past life, eventhough it is quite cleche to claim to be an historical figure. One of my last thoughts before I woke up from one of those dreams was to make my mark on history by inventing hot air balloons and electricity etc.

I also once dreampt I was in the iron age.

 

[Corcoran]

You should look into it... not a lot of equations, but rather LOTS of language and logic for what forms the foundations of the scientific method.

Perhaps I will...lots of language, you say? I'm good with language. Words are right up my street.

It's only words...and words are all I have...to take your heart away.

One of my Bee Gees fan moments there. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Darby]

First of all, what do you mean by "consciously leave their bodies while unconscious?" That's a paradox and that's not what I said at all. What I said, was that people can leave their bodies whilst asleep but that is NOT astral projection, because their mind is unconscious at that time.

Yes, I know. But you see the problem, don't you? I did, and the "misinterpretation" was intentional. We generally call the line of response reductio ad absurdum. In one post you put forward astral projection and yet another (nameless) New Agey form of "let's leave the body," Who arbitrarily decided that conscious leaving of the body is somehow significantly different than unconsciously leaving the body or that consciousness or unconsciousness is a requirement at all? Maybe semi-consciousness after a night at the pub is required? Moreover, if the person is unconscious, and the "spirit" is otherwise invisible, who precisely determines that the person's spirit went on walk-about? Unconscious is...well...unconscious and invisible is invisible.

This isn't mindless chiding or derision. The questions beg answer given that this is a big money industry, New Age marketing - CD's, DVD's, books, magazines, guest lecture tour, consultation fees, ghost hunting, TV, radio, spam. readings, etc.

 

[Good_Scientist]

Just wondering how many people here actually believe that time travel could be possible./quote]

It is possible. I know exactly how to do it. It's just incredibly difficult, and nowhere near our capabilities, for maybe thousands of years.

However, I trust those who have related their experiences to me.

You're too trusting. When time travel and especially where astral projection is concerned, it's best not to trust anyone until there's concrete proof.

 

[Twighlight]

Regardless of the fact that the mind is being tricked into perceiving it as an OBE, I would still think it remarkable that the mind can come up with such an extraordinary hallucination, so that would suggest to me, that there is some source of hidden, untapped power in the human mind which people are not aware of.

It really does require a knowledge of the science to be able to comprehend what it possible and what isn't in this arena.

Some scientists speculate ( and it IS just speculation ) that the curious role of 'the observer' in quantum phenomenon might allow something analogous to psychic phenomenon to occur. But it's just as true that that is why many scientists are not happy with what is known as the 'Copenhagen interpretation' of quantum mechanics. It is actually a fundamental reason why the 'many worlds' interpretation has gained popularity......as it eliminates the curious effect whereby the observer seems to 'decide' what quantum probabilities occur. Personally I don't like the many worlds interpretation...which incidentally is where 'timelines' originate.....as it seems absurd that a whole new universe be created simply for an event involving one atom.

So, quantum physics holds out a 'possibility' of strange phenomenon. The problem is....that possibility is not backed up by direct observational evidence. Not only that, but as I said in an earlier post......the type of particles needed to create such things as 'astral bodies' would contain self-contradictory properties.

I don't think one can 100% rule out psychic phenomenon. But the nature of science is such that it is up to such phenomenon to prove they are real.....not for science to prove they are not. Decades of study have resulted in not one single scientifically verifiable case. Indeed, some former 'believers' such as Dr Susan Blackmore, who studied psychic phenomenon herself, are now hardened sceptics. The reason being that the evidence just is not there.

 

[Darby]

Twilight,

Some scientists speculate ( and it IS just speculation ) that the curious role of 'the observer' in quantum phenomenon might allow something analogous to psychic phenomenon to occur.

That's true as far as "some scientists" go. But quantum physics is in general deterministic in the sense that the probabilities indicated in the math and expermintal verification rule the absurd outcomes unless you extend the time required to observe the obsurd outcome to 10^60+ years. Sure, on the atomic level somewhere in the universe you might find an electron or two doing the "impossible". But throw 10^23 atoms together and you won't see otherwise impossible results over the course of the life of the universe. One mole of atoms won't, all together, suddenly quantum tunnel through your bedroom wall.

You are correct that the observer plays a very different role in quantum physics relative to classical physics. But the quantum interpretation makes more sense than the classical interpretation. You can't actually observe an event at the atomic or subatomic level without disturbing the system. At the very least you have to shine a photon on the system and to see the system in focus the photon's wavelength has to be less than the wavelength of the object under observation. Extremely tiny systems mean extremely high energy photons, i.e. using bowling balls to observe B-B's. Short wavelength means high energy.

 

[eyecare74]

So I noticed my post received a zero response, and instead you go on scientifically explaining why certain things just can not happen because mainstream science says so.

I say I have observed multiple (50+) times, with amazing accuracy I might add, an individual "see" if you will, activities, people, locations,...etc; literally thousands of miles away. This is not something where an individual can just explain away.

The problem lies within the fact that mainstream science looks at things which they have no answer for as pseudo-science. It does not help that new age type people make all of these bold and crazy claims that they perform miracles or predict the future. It gives "real" areas of study a bad name.

This is why in previous post on matters such as this, I have stated my "belief" that the entire universe is connected by a universal energy. What you may choose to call this energy or power source is totally up to you.

I do not believe in the "Paranormal" on a personal level, I "believe" it can all be explained scientifically, but it is simply not understood with our current technology.

If an individual who works for the government can sit down, clear their mind, sit stationary for 25min to around and hour, then describe in detail exactly where somebody or something is...and then you can go find it exactly where they say...well, that speaks for itself.

You do not need science to explain something like that. You just except it for what it is. You can ramble on for as long as you like about how it does not make scientific sense, but when you see this happen numerous "repeatable" times you start to realize it's real...you just can't explain it.

This is why I have said I do not feel a person can predict the future. I do not feel my futre is written. I do not feel the future even exists, nor do I feel the past exists. We live in the current here and now. It is my belief that your past is nothing more than a memory, and your future is what you choose to make it.

In all the years I have worked for the government, I have never met one of these individuals who claim to predict the future, nor see events in the past. It has always been real time, and they advise or explain what they saw for that period of time.

I know a good trick when I see one, and I'm pretty good knowing when somebody is full of crap. I just don't see us putting actual lives on the line over a circus trick. So if you can explain it away be my guest.

 

[Darby]

But quantum physics is in general deterministic in the sense that the probabilities indicated in the math and expermintal verification rule the absurd outcomes

That should read: But quantum physics is in general deterministic in the sense that the probabilities indicated in the math and expermintal verification rule out the absurd outcomes

 

[Twighlight]

I say I have observed multiple (50+) times, with amazing accuracy I might add, an individual "see" if you will, activities, people, locations,...etc; literally thousands of miles away. This is not something where an individual can just explain away.

Actually I'm afraid it is.

The problem with remote viewing tests is that there is often no real method of accurately determining the accuracy of what is seen. It's not like Zenner cards, where there is a quite specific hit or a miss.

Let's say the 'target' is a railway station in some Siberian town. Hmm....so i draw two straight lines...and immediately the tester jumps on that as ' oh, you got the railway tracks'. But of course, two straight lines might just as well have been a chimney stack, or part of the fuselage of an airplane, or a bridge, or whatever.

There's no decisive methodology for determining accuracy. That is why, a few years back I recall there was a quite well known psi test website ( i forget the name ) that did such tests online.......and the hit or miss criteria were simple things like was there water in the pic, or was it hot or cold, etc. I quite often scored 'accurately', having received no mental impression at all.

 

[Twighlight]

But quantum physics is in general deterministic in the sense that the probabilities indicated in the math and expermintal verification rule out the absurd outcomes

Ah, but that is where Professor Paul Davies steps in with his notion of humans affecting quantum states way back in history by the act of observation now. Clearly, an event happening right now in the immediate vicinity is unlikely to jump to some highly improbable state, whereas a small tweek billions of years ago could have major effects.

Davies raises an interesting point, that is worth raising. Just how far back in time does the observer effect go ?

Where Davies makes a bit of a mistake in logic is that even if the effect WERE real, the results would now be billions of light years away and not HERE. So you'd actually need other observers billions of light years away.....to create Davies effect for our galaxy.

 

[Darby]

Ah, but that is where Professor Paul Davies steps in with his notion of humans affecting quantum states way back in history by the act of observation now.

Bohm (early 1950's), de Broglie (mid 1920's) and others brought forward theories challenging the Copenhagen Interpretation before Davies was born.

None of that challenges or changes the general notion of determinancy in QM as a statistical science. A small tweek billions of years ago isn't any more likely to result in an improbable state than a small tweek ten minutes ago. The tweek is irrelevent to an unexpected and highly unlikely state. That would require classical determinancy - which is incorrect. My truck, even uf we wait 10 trillion years, will not quantum jump into a state of being a carton of cream cheese...no matter what the tweeks were.

Can it happen? In principle yes it can. All that has to occur is for each and every atom in my truck to simultenaously undergo quantum nucleosynthesis and change from iron, steel, plastic and aluminum atoms to complex carbyhydrate molecules. The probability since the Big Bang event that one atom of anything has undergone such a quantum jump in state is all but zero.

 

[Twighlight]

Can it happen? In principle yes it can. All that has to occur is for each and every atom in my truck to simultenaously undergo quantum nucleosynthesis and change from iron, steel, plastic and aluminum atoms to complex carbyhydrate molecules. The probability since the Big Bang event that one atom of anything has undergone such a quantum jump in state is all but zero.

Well...I'd dispute that, if one is using a purely Copenhagen Interpretation quantum physics.

The entire basis of the 'observer effect' is the appearance of the collapse of the wave funtion being down to the observer. As Schrodinger raised with his cat, until the observer actually makes the observation there is a state of superposition.....the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. The whole point of Schrodinger's Cat is not simply to demonstrate indeterminacy in the Copenhagen model.....but that a quantum effect ( a single particle, in this thought experiment ) CAN have a classical determinacy outcome. That was the whole point of the thought experiment.

So if quantum indeterminacy of a single particle ( whether it decays or not ) can have such a major classical impact as whether a cat is alive or dead......I'd say Davies does have a point.

Of course your truck won't convert into a carton of cream cheese....because that is ( as you say ) highly improbable. Schrodingers Cat, on the other hand, is between two equally probably outcomes. So Davies is not suggesting that by observing the universe we might suddenly get square planets or something outrageous.....but that the act of making PROBABLE outcomes more likely could cumulatively make a big difference.

There's a term for what Davies describes.......bootstrapping, analogous to lifting oneself up by one's own boot straps. Sounds crazy, but it's really just a cosmic extension of Schrodinger's Cat..in which one can affect the outcome in the past, and hence determine the present. Actually I think Wheeler got there before Davies, with his 'self conscious universe' that implies pretty much the same thing.